#96992
02/27/2003 2:02 AM
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A friend sent me this link to an article on gender-neutral technical writing. I found it pretty interesting - anyone wish to read and/or comment? http://www.jeanweber.com/howto/genderneutral.htm
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#96993
02/27/2003 2:48 AM
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Holy cow, mg, that Register guy could have taken a leaf from this "book": Technical communication's goal is to convey information to an audience, in a form that the audience can understand and use. We should avoid, if possible, anything that interferes with clear communication. If part of our audience is insulted (or offended, irritated, confused, or misled) or stumbles over the way we express ourselves, that reaction will interfere with the reception and understanding of our message.
There are some very good suggestions for technical writers, e.g.
No Each user has his own login name and password.
No Each user has their own login name and password.
Yes Each user has a personal login name and password.
I don't do enough writing to be able to say whether these suggestions could easily be carried over into other types of writing. But I would think so, to some degree at least.
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#96994
02/27/2003 11:35 AM
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I have, with only a small amount of effort, managed to speak normally in entirely gender neutral sentences and done so, I believe, without its even being noticed by my listeners. It doesn't just happen and, in the early stages, I found myself falling in to gender-laden phrases, but, given a little time and a little effort, it became pretty natural.
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#96995
02/27/2003 1:03 PM
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[rant]Let me tell you that after 7 years in Executive Recruitment, I not only learnt to speak in gender neutral terms, but also to refrain from any allusion to political belief, sexual persuasion, personal phiosophies (New Age healing etc) race, religion and physical appearance.
Whilst I pull up short of saying I used the laughable level of 'politically correct' language we often hear about, I had to be darn careful I avoided ALL sensitive areas. After all the main aim was to establish whether a candidate could do the job, how they would learn, what they'd bring to the client's company and how they'd interact with people. Nothing else really mattered. Fortunately the great majority of my clients felt the same way.
To be frank all this verbal tippy toeing about didn't bother me in the slightest - it forced me to focus only on the the person's candidacy for the role. In broader terms, isn't that how life should be?
[/rant]
stales
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#96996
02/27/2003 2:19 PM
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I don't know. I'm not an HR person, but I work with them enough.
If I hear the phrase "diversity candidate" one more time I'm gonna puke.
k
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#96997
02/27/2003 4:21 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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If part of our audience ... stumbles over the way we express ourselves, that reaction will interfere with the reception and understanding of our message.
...No, on second thoughts George, I'm not going there.
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#96998
02/27/2003 8:06 PM
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After all the main aim was to establish whether a candidate could do the job, how they would learn, what they'd bring to the client's company and how they'd interact with people. Nothing else really mattered. Fortunately the great majority of my clients felt the same way.
well, not to pick on you stales, but here is a perfect example where just making the initial subject (a candidate) into a plural (the candidates) removes all discordancy from a paragraph.
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#96999
02/27/2003 8:12 PM
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Y'all don't have any qualms about plural pronouns doing singular duty in the second person, why all this fuss about the third person?
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#97000
02/27/2003 11:26 PM
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Sounds like you are picking on me tsuwm.
Same as when somebody commences a statement with, "Without wishing to offend you...." then proceed to do just that!
stales
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#97001
03/02/2003 4:13 PM
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plural pronouns doing singular duty in the second person
Faldage, I've tried and I can't come up with an example....would you supply one?
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#97002
03/02/2003 8:55 PM
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>There are some very good suggestions for technical writers, e.g.
No Each user has his own login name and password.
No Each user has their own login name and password.
Yes Each user has a personal login name and password.
The middle option is both gender-neutral and sensible, to all but hidebound prescriptivists.
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#97003
03/02/2003 9:36 PM
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No The successful applicant will use his skills to contribute to the commission's work in remote areas. He will be posted to various locations during his two-year appointment. His removal costs will be paid, and he will be entitled to one return airfare each six months to the capital city of his choice.
I may open a can of worms here...forgive me ladies if this stresses you out but I don't get offended, irritated, confused, or misled by paragraph like the one above.
If I saw this in a want-ad I wouldn't for one minute think that it excluded me from applying. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind. I think we should take the chip off of our shoulder and stop looking for bugs where there aren't any.
Gender neutral writing is not proof of an open mind just like writing with gender specifics is not the proof of a closed mind.
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#97004
03/03/2003 1:05 AM
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I can't come up with an example....would you supply one?
Thou hast come up with the example thine own self.
And to make matters worse, you is dative/accusative. It's like using us as the first person nominative singular; Us've tried and us can't come up with an example.
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#97005
03/03/2003 2:52 AM
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Thou hast come up with the example thine own self.
but but but....isn't "you" also singular? (or is that why you used "thou" and "thine" to indicate singular? is "you" necessarily plural? shouldn't it be differentiated with "you-all," "y'all," or "youse" when it's more than one person? [tongue-in-cheek e])
No, really? But I think I understand now....running through other examples in my head: "If you both drive the same distance as fast as you can, we'll see which car is faster. If he drives as fast as he can, his car may pull ahead...."
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#97006
03/03/2003 2:56 AM
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to all but hidebound prescriptivists.By saying this, you attempt to silence all those who might disagree with you, perhaps not realising that those who disagree with you, might also reject such a qualifier. I don't consider myself a hidebound prescriptivist - I'm more of a fundamentalist egalitarian, if'n I'm going to apply any label to myself at all - but I DO consider that middle example to be wretched and unpleasing to the eye and ear. And just plain WRONG. But then, I also believe that verbs has to agree with their subjects. 
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#97007
03/03/2003 6:22 AM
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#97008
03/03/2003 11:18 AM
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You (or ye) as a singular pronoun started in the late fourteenth century, originally as a term of respect. Check your Shakespeare; you'll note that when characters are speaking up, they use you or ye, when they are speaking down they use thee of thou. Use of they in the singular dates from the early sixteenth century. Incidentally, there was a time when it was considered proper to say, e.g., you were when the you was plural and you was when it was singular.
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#97009
03/03/2003 11:51 AM
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tho' a bit afeared to step in the middle of mg and sjm, I can hear the middle one as being ok, because each user implies a group of users, though being used one at a time. so their works for me. (well, I'm pretty sure I've used it a few times...  ) the third example works very well, as well. nise and concise. btw, I'm a unitarian-universalist.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#97010
03/03/2003 12:40 PM
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I have a bit of a problem with using YOU in directions. I admit it is probably an emotional/upbringing reason but nonetheless...
In French the word you (tu) is used to denote familiarity. It is considered impolite to use you with someone you don't know so all instructions use vous.
I realize there is no English version of vous but I am still very uncomfortable with using you in instruction. I feels very dictatorly.
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#97011
03/03/2003 1:15 PM
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I am personally sick unto nausea with all of the gyrations and language murdering we resort to while trying to avoid offending the dreaded "someone."
"No Each user has his own login name and password.
"No Each user has their own login name and password.
"Yes Each user has a personal login name and password.
"The middle option is both gender-neutral and sensible, to all but hidebound prescriptivists."
I guess I'm a hidebound prescriptivist, but the "middle option" is totally unacceptable to me. Why in the name of all that's holy is it sensible when it makes a significant portion of the readers want to throw up on their shoes?
We go so far for this stupid PC bullshit that we are in danger of destroying the beauty of the English language by having internal disagreements in sentences.
Does not the visceral reaction of the critical reader count the same as the visceral reaction of the woman who feels that she has been de-gendered by having what some consider a masculine pronoun applied to her? Do I NOT BLEED?????
The correct sentence is none of the above. It is one of these:
Each user has his own login name.
Each user has her own login name.
Each user has his or her own login name.
Each user has a unique login name.
All users have a unique login name.
There is no way of knowing whether users have unique passwords so it's best not to even go there.
My personal preference in the above list of five sentences is the fourth, but I have frequently used constructions similar to all five of them. Part of it depends on the cadence of the sentence itself, while the rest depends on the overall context.
TEd
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#97012
03/03/2003 1:39 PM
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We go so far for this stupid PC bullshit that we are in danger of destroying the beauty of the English languagehahahaha!  why is it always men that are anti-PC?<wink, smile, lilt in voice> internal disagreements in sentencesyou all don't listen to no jazz, do ya?
formerly known as etaoin...
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#97013
03/03/2003 1:39 PM
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All users have a unique login name.
Do they share it? Who gets to pick it?
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#97014
03/03/2003 3:30 PM
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Camille Paglia is a man?
k
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#97015
03/03/2003 4:42 PM
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Why in the name of all that's holy is it sensible when it makes a significant portion of the readers want to throw up on their shoes?
I think it's questionable whether a "significant portion" of people object to the Each user has their own login name and password example. Some people do. We'd have to do some kind of poll to see if a "significant portion" of people do. I personally don't mind it and it comes out very naturally in casual, spoken speech. To me that's a sign of some sort of growing acceptance of it.
I think I've used this example before in PC-related dicussion. It used to be that I couldn't see the point in PC-ifying language. But when I joined the Board, Sparteye was a "journeyman". I didn't even realize that I thought she was a man until my first PM with her, and she turned out to be a woman, and I was surprised. I wondered why I'd thought this and then noticed her "ranking" of journeyman. Conclusion: gender-specific words do affect what we think of people, whether we are aware of it or not.
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#97016
03/03/2003 4:47 PM
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… language murdering we resort to while trying to avoid offending the dreaded "someone."
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Why in the name of all that's holy is it sensible when it makes a significant portion of the readers want to throw up on their shoes?
Your honor, I rest my case.
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#97017
03/03/2003 10:51 PM
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I'm not offended by most PC speech, just annoyed, some of it is jarring - not all, but some. OTOH, some of it actually makes sense to me. Only offended when an individual presumes to give me instruction on how to say what I want to say. It's usually followed immediately by complementary and equally friendly and helpful advice in the form of a simple program downloaded to his auditory interface for convenience:
step 1. Loosen sphincter.
step 2. Apply crowbar as lever in vigorous, forceful motion.
step 3. Extract skull.
Unless specifically requested to edit someone else's work, I don't comment on other people's spelling, diction, grammar, or style any more than I'd comment on their clothes, personal grooming, or sexual proclivities.
That being said, I think it's perfectly reasonable, aiming for clearer, formal communication, to use language that more accurately conveys the message we want the listener or reader to receive. OTOH, for casual conversation and casual writing (and most conversation and most writing IS casual), I think we ought to speak in the manner that feels comfortable to us. However, there's a difference between asserting "I will do X, because of Y" and "You should do X" with sometimes vague, but usually not-so-vague overtones that failure to immediately adopt X indicates that one shares membership in some nebulous super-class with klansmen, republicans, rednecks, and miscellaneous other bigots (a bigot being anyone whose convictions differ significantly from the taxonomist).
k
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#97018
03/04/2003 2:49 AM
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I am in awe of your hubris in telling me what I was attempting to do.Li'l man, you're so ridiculous I can't stop laughing at you. It's kinda fun watching you get all pompous and lathered up about stuff.
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#97019
03/04/2003 6:04 PM
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>There are some very good suggestions for technical writers, e.g.
No Each user has his own login name and password.
No Each user has their own login name and password.
Yes Each user has a personal login name and password.
The middle option is both gender-neutral and sensible, to all but hidebound prescriptivists.
I missed this message the first few times through the thread. I don't even know exactly what a prescriptivist is, which of course is no evidence that I'm not one.
However, I can say that the second option, while your favorite, is quite jarring to my ears and to the fragmentary, ephmeral insights I think of as my intellect. It just doesn't sound right. Had I learned this method earlier, or had I not learned anything at all, it might seem fine. I would use either the first or the third options. Either grates less. As I alternate (not in a single text) between genders, I might also write "Each user has her own login name and password." (If I were consciously thinking about it; otherwise, I'd probably just use the 'his.')
k
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