#81868
09/27/2002 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 167
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 |
[wWARNING - not for those of very delicate sensibility]
Last night they showed a TV documentary ( - US or UK originated, not sure - ) about "honour killings" (what an oxymoron!) in Pakistan; "Honour Among Men - The Killing of Women in Pakistan". It concerns a 27 year old woman whose husband hung her upside down, broke her ribs with an axe handle, sliced off her nose and ears, tried to cut her tongue off, then gouged out her eyes. She was 3 months pregnant (his baby).
The US-Pakistan community in Wasshington fly her to the US for reconstructive surgery by maxillo-facial, etc. experts.
It was an extraordinary story - my wife and I watched it just sobbing throughout. Has it been shown elsewhere yet?
jj
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#81869
09/27/2002 1:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Crap. Your warning should've been in BOLD RED - in fact I hope you'll edit it and maybe warn that your post contains graphic violence. I don't think you have to be of "very delicate sensibility" to be troubled by this image. I am still resisting processing it - and my only question is, WHY? why did he abuse her so heinously? if she was pregnant with his baby? and why did you post all the details?? (which I managed not to really read properly - suddenly realised horrible horrible content and skimmed over post) is it one of those "this it too horrible, who can I exclaim over it with" moments?
If it shows here in Canada, I won't be watching it. I'm sorry I learned about it at all. Somehow thought this would be a word post about "honour killings." Silly me.
If you can't see the bright side, polish the dull side.
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#81870
09/27/2002 8:48 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear johnjohn,
What is an "honor killing"? Even after reading the story, I didn't understand what it was...what its purpose is.
Thanks for providing whatever you learned about the meaning of the term.
Best regards,
WW
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#81871
09/27/2002 9:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
Here's the view of the Muslim's Women's League In various countries throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East and parts of South Asia, women who bring dishonor to their families because of sexual indiscretions are forced to pay a terrible price at the hands of male family members. Attempted murder and other forms of corporal punishment have been reported. The most severe manifestations of punishment affect only a small percentage of women, even though the notion of family honor and shame is extremely important in most communities of the Muslim world. Women from other faith groups may also be subject to similar attitudes from within their own communities in those countries. Clearly, the prevailing view that devalues and belittles women is derived from sociocultural factors that are justified by a distorted and erroneous interpretation of religion, especially of Islam.http://www.mwlusa.org/pub_hk.htmlPerhaps, as Mod God implies, it is a little like looking at a car crash - I know that in the past we have not always had our happiest times in discussing politics or complicated religious differences here, I'm happy to discuss it further by PM if anyone wishes so we should stick to the words. It sounds like an oxymoron to me like "friendly fire" as previously discussed. Shall we leave it there?
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#81872
09/30/2002 10:53 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 167
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 |
I am puzzled by the reaction to this post.
First, the description of the programme was in fact almost verbatim as it appeared in the "Australian" newspaper Media section ( - this being the only national circulation quality daily newspaper in Oz). Indeed the Sydney Morning Herald review was to similar effect. No doubt quality US (and Canadian) newspapers have or will have reviews or commentaries in similar vein, assuming it is shown or has been shown there.
Secondly, honour killings are a phenomenon of which I was only very vaguely aware. It seems that others on the Board are/were in a similar position. Is ignorance preferable here? No doubt the several thousand women who suffer this fate (or similar) every year feel not a little offended by the practice too, and no doubt they would prefer such ignorance. I know people who just cover their ears when Amnesty International tells them what may be going on in other countries.
A key and crucial aspect of the programme is that the perpetrators are poor, ignorant and ill-educated. These events don't happen in rich, suburban Karachi. If "civilised" western countries are to help them be stopped or at least diminished in frequency, it is necessary for us to know that they happen.
The ostensible reason why the husband treated her thus doesn't really matter. (In one case the man did it for the reason that his wife spoke to another man, for example.)
The point about the programme was the extraordinary tenacity and inner strength of the woman. (In an unprecedented legal development, she and her brother pursued and secured prosecution of and a 14 year gaol sentence for the man.) It was a remarkable testament to her inner strength, and extraordinarily inspiring, that she otherwise just got on with her life, quietly bringing up her children as before. The programme is harrowing, but there is violence depicted, only the end-product of it. I was very uplifted and moved by it and the woman radiates peace and calm and exemplifies the indomitability and everything else that is finest about the human spirit.
We're big boys and girls on this Board. Life is not always pleasant. I felt that anatomical details about internal examinations in the recent "squamous" thread were more information than I needed to know, but I would never ever dream of trying to censor someone's right to make such an observation - one just shrugs and moves on.
I am specifically not making a religious point here, as the programme emphasises that honour killings are NOT condoned by Islam; nor are they confined to Pakistan, though this is where they take place most frequently.
In my experience marking a post in red and flagging that it contains strong graphic violence is an invitation to the wrong people to read the post, and for the wrong reasons.
jj
"For evil to flourish it is necessary only that good men do nothing."
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#81873
09/30/2002 11:53 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Johnjohn,
I didn't see a problem with what you wrote. The term "honor killing" was new to me, and I appreciate being on the alert about it, thanks to you.
Best regards,
WW
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#81874
09/30/2002 12:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
jj, I think a lot of us actually know about this. We will all be pretty united in our condemnation of it too, I would imagine. However, this is not an isolated event like the sentencing of the Nigerian woman to be stoned to death, it is a societal aberration of which Pakistan appears to have more than its fair share.
I listened to a Radio 4 programme a few weeks ago about the forced marriage industry in Pakistan. Chilling stuff, too.
None of this should be blamed on Islam, it is a "local custom" in each case. The local imams or mullahs may condone it in much the same way as Christian priests in Africa condone the continued adherence of their parishioners to animism ...
It is within Pakistan's capability to do something about it. There is little we can do except deplore it.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#81875
09/30/2002 7:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
I am puzzled by the reaction to this post.
I'm puzzled by your puzzlement. It's not really a word post at all, is it? Granted we have loads of non-word posts on this site - posts about food and so on - but this seems to be carrying it a bit far, speaking only for myself here.
Secondly, honour killings are a phenomenon of which I was only very vaguely aware.
Ditto. And I'd like to keep it that way. My ability to be concerned about injustice and brutality is limited to things I can do something about. The rest is just needless incredible emotional and intellectual distress. A woman's gotta know her limitations. And I don't expect to come to a word board and have graphic violence shoved in my face.
The point about the programme was the extraordinary tenacity and inner strength of the woman.
A point you failed to make in your original post. I was interested to read of her successful suit against her husband. Thank you for relating it.
I felt that anatomical details about internal examinations in the recent "squamous" thread were more information than I needed to know
At least it was word-related - this being a word board, an' all - and at least it wasn't violent.
In my experience marking a post in red and flagging that it contains strong graphic violence is an invitation to the wrong people to read the post, and for the wrong reasons.
Again, silly me: I didn't think we had "the wrong people" on this site, and I couldn't even begin to imagine what "the wrong reasons" for reading such a post might be. If you're afraid your post might be misinterpreted, perhaps you need to be more explicit in your reasons for posting it, since it's not to do with words.
"For evil to flourish it is necessary only that good men do nothing."
So what did you and your wife do about this particular evil, apart from cry about it and then post it here on the board?
If you can't see the bright side, polish the dull side.
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