#81130
09/19/2002 12:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the thread started by Dr bill, on Punjab, (which seems to be the land of the five rivers,) changed directions . but i kept thinking about it.. http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=weeklythemes&Number=81002Mesapotamia came up, i.e., the land between the two rivers, and i thought of hippopotamus, (horse of the river, or more commonly river horse with the potumos ending meaning river.. and i wondered how river and feather had the same root -- and looked it up, here is the link, http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE405.htmland wow, what a list of words ! The commonality seems to be rapid movement -- (to fly, to rush,) and from there many movement words, and feather related words... ) and while there are many links, i can think of one or two words related to the root that are not listed.. and i suspect others can add more! but even the ones what are listed , offer a wealth of fun. what does panache Dash, Verve have to do with ptomaine a nitrogenous organic compound produced by bacterial putrefaction ? the text below, is incomplete, since images of some of the symbols used don't copy well.. and the original has many links.. Pet(symbol)- Also pet- (oldest form *pet1-). To rush, fly. Variant *pte1-, contracted to *pt-. Derivatives include feather, compete, perpetual, ptomaine, symptom, and hippopotamus. 1. Suffixed form *pet-r-. feather, from Old English fether, feather, from Germanic *fethr, feather. 2. –petal, petition, petulant; appetite, compete, impetigo, impetuous, impetus, perpetual, repeat, from Latin petere, to go toward, seek. 3. Suffixed form *pet-n-. panache, pen1, penna, pennate, pennon, pin, pinna, pinnacle, pinnate, pinnati-, pinnule; empennage, from Latin penna, pinna, feather, wing. 4. Suffixed form *pet-ro- in compound *aku-petro- (see ku-). 5. Suffixed form *pet-yo-. propitious, from Latin propitius, favorable, gracious, originally a religious term meaning “falling or rushing forward,” hence “eager,” “well-disposed” (said of the gods; pr-, forward; see per1). 6. Suffixed zero-grade form *pt-ero-. –pter; acanthopterygian, aminopterin, apteryx, archaeopteryx, coleopteran, dipteral, mecopteran, orthopteran, peripteral, plecopteran, pteridology, pterygoid, sauropterygian, from Greek pteron, feather, wing, and pterux, wing. 7. Suffixed zero-grade form *pt-ilo-. coleoptile, from Greek ptilon, soft feathers, down, plume. 8. Suffixed variant form *pt-no-. stearoptene, from Greek ptnos, winged, flying. 9. Reduplicated form *pi-pt-. ptomaine, ptosis; asymptote, peripeteia, proptosis, symptom, from Greek piptein, to fall, with verbal adjective pttos (< pt-to-), falling, fallen, and nominal derivatives ptsis (< *pt-ti-), a fall, and ptm (< *pt-m), a fall, fallen body, corpse. 10. O-grade form *pot-. hippopotamus, potamology, from Greek potamos “rushing water,” river (-amo-, Greek suffix). 11. Suffixed form *pet-tro-. talipot, from Sanskrit pattram, feather, leaf. (Pokorny 2. pet- 825.)
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#81131
09/19/2002 1:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear of troy: A fabulous find. Worth a lot of time to read and re-read. I hadn't seen "ptomaine"
for a long time. Before bacteria were discovered, it was thought some kinds of food poisoning
were due to breakdown of proteins, and called "ptomaine poisoning." My father had a
Mrs. Malaprop complain to him that she had "pantomime poisoning."
I expect to spend a lot of time going over that goldmine again. Thanks, of troy.
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#81132
09/20/2002 1:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Is "potable water" somewhat redundant, then? Maybe not, I suppose, if compared to standing/stagnant water. unless it means it can be carted about from place to place down south
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#81133
09/20/2002 10:23 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Or is potable water water that you can put into a river?
Different roots: Potable from Latin potare, to drink, traces back to PIE poi-, to drink. The Greek traces back to the PIE root pet-, to rush, fly.
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#81134
09/20/2002 11:22 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yeah, some people fly to drink on Friday afternoons--happy hours with potable concoctions.
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#81135
09/20/2002 11:53 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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re:--happy hours with potable concoctions.
More often called potent potables!
and Wof, potable water is often not redundent. at road construction sites, they some times have a tank (truck) with water to wash down the road, and another smaller tank of potable water. and good quality garden hoses can deliver potable water --but sometimes cheap ones are not safe to drink from and so labeled.
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#81136
09/20/2002 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Try drinking sea water and then you'll appreciate potable water.
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#81137
09/21/2002 3:35 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What I meant by "redundant" was the rendering of potable water as "water-of-the-river water." Certainly drinkable water, as opposed to keep-the-dust-down-on-the-road water, is a valid distinction.
Haven't thought of that usage in a long time though (warm thoughts emoticon); I must have stayed too close to big cities for too long, and haven't seen any dirt roads in the summertime lately...
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#81138
09/21/2002 7:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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"water-of-the-river water."
Aha! My misunderstanding was correct after all!
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#81139
09/21/2002 8:09 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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This week's theme was words that have changed their meaning. "Panache" is surely one
of those. My dictionary says:dashing elegance of manner; carefree, spirited self-confidence or style; flamboyance.
One feather in your cap won't do it. You have to be confident everybody knows you have had
many dozens of them in the past.
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#81140
09/22/2002 12:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Maybe potable came to mean safe to drink back when rivers were clean enough to drink from? Hence river water was safe to consume as opposed to sea water which didn't go down so well. Just guessing.
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#81141
09/22/2002 1:51 PM
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I wonder if feather and fledge are related etymologically, since both are related to flying.
I haven't been able to find any confirmation. Can you?
Edit: I looked ;up "fledge" in AHD, and it gives as first meaning, to take care of a young bird
until it is ready to fly. That reminded me of German word "pflegen" meaning to take care of.
I wonder what the roots of "pflegen" are.
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#81142
09/23/2002 2:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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A very intersting linkage, indeed--thanks, Helen. But--what on earth does "zero-grade form" mean, please?
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#81143
09/23/2002 2:43 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Jackie: Of troy posted 10. O-grade form. Letter capital O, not zero. Meaning the
words starting p followed by o.
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#81144
09/23/2002 3:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 8
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2002
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#81145
09/23/2002 3:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Okay, now I know what an o-grade word is, too--thanks, Dr. Bill. Um--so, a zero-grade word is, like, the first one? In a series, I mean? Like in England where the first floor is the zeroth floor?  EDIT Yi! In the time it took me to write the above, the whole post I was responding to vanished! Wee-oo-EE-oo...
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#81146
09/23/2002 5:48 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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PIE roots generally have an e in them somewhere.
For example, the root for liberty is leudh-. The O grade form would replace the e with an o giving us *loudh-; the zero grade form would dispense with the e entirely giving us *ludh-
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#81147
09/24/2002 8:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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Like in England where the first floor is the zeroth floor?
Eh? Does this mean that USns call what we call the "Ground Floor" the First Floor, with what we have marked on a lift as a "G" marked on a USn lift by a "1"?
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#81148
09/24/2002 9:21 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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USns call what we call the "Ground Floor" the First Floor
You got it, wot?
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#81149
09/24/2002 9:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Precisely. And the French call it the rez-de-chaussez, as I recall, though I never looked up the literal meaning.
A rare US building will have both, but usually there are extenuating circumstances, such as the building being built on a hill so both floors are on the ground...
But in general, in the US, when you walk off the street and onto an elevator you have gotten in at the first floor, which is also the ground floor, and may have either a "G" or a "1" on the button. (As well as the mandated star to tell you that's where the exit to street is.)
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#81150
09/24/2002 9:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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Live and learn!
So the lift (sorry, elevator) buttons go G/1,2,3,4,5 where ours go G,1,2,3,4.
Naturally this strikes me as equally weird to our arrangement striking you. Errr, or something.
How many floors in this hypothetical building, BTW?
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#81151
09/24/2002 9:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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How many floors in this hypothetical building?
Depends, you counting the basement(s)?
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#81152
09/24/2002 9:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 742 |
How many floors in this hypothetical building, BTW?
What do you get if you multiply six by nine?
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#81153
09/25/2002 2:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
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What do you get if you multiply six by nine?
lemme guess . . .42?
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#81154
09/25/2002 3:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
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>Lemme guess . . .42?
Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.
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#81155
09/25/2002 5:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
>Lemme guess . . .42?
Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.
Or merely working in the ordinary regular everyday base 10.
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#81156
09/25/2002 11:43 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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you counting the basement(s)?
Nope.
Just:
G/1,2,3,4
Actually I'm going to have to check on the Brit interpretation of G,1,2,3!
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#81157
09/25/2002 12:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.
You got it, sjm. I used to work on the 14th floor in NYC and it always confused me.
Meanwhile, I'm wondering if the US is the *only country where the first floor is called the ground floor. After having lived in Europe and Brazil, that still confuses me, too.
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#81158
09/25/2002 1:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Does Canada count as a country [I mean that jokingly of course]? The floor appellation is the same here as in the US. With a strange exception - at both universities I'm familiar with, in very different parts of the country, the ground floor is the 200 floor. So the next one up has rooms number 300, and so on. The 100 floor is the basement. Argh!
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#81159
09/26/2002 4:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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The floor appellation is the same here as in the US
I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back and they used RDC for Rez de Chaussee!
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#81160
09/27/2002 7:54 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm sure we discussed this is the long distant past and someone found a reference that in fact Europe (including the UK) used to use the 1,2,3 system and changed to "ground floor" at some point, whereas the USA (and presumably Canada, didn't). Edit: Here it is - From Lucy:
My rather elderly Shorter Oxford gives the following:
First-floor. 1663.
1. The floor next above the ground floor 1865.
2. The ground floor. Now only U.S.http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=2056
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#81161
09/27/2002 8:54 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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From Jo's ref, courtesy of wsieber:
The change probably happened when the elevator-makers expanded their business from Great Britain to the European Continent. German "Stock" and French "Etage" intrinsically mean a plane above the ground, so "1.Stock" never meant anything else than the first "elevated" floor.
That makes sense, and explains the difference well.
OK, Jo, so how many floors would Brits say my hypothetical building has, i.e. G,1,2,3,4 (USn G/1,2,3,4,5)?
Check the whited out text below after you've decided!
I think it might be four floors, discounting ground floor
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#81162
09/27/2002 10:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,156 |
I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back and they used RDC for Rez de Chaussee!Well, there are a lot of things in Quebec that are different than in the rest of Canada. [massive understatement] That is why it is good (in general) that belMarduk is aBoard, she can correct me if I over-generalize, my experience being limited to the west and far-east of Canada. In this case it's dxb I should thank for pointing that out.
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#81163
09/27/2002 5:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back
You were THAT close to me, and didn't run down here to say hello?! Ohhhhhhh, I am hurt hurt hurt! ;-) Whatever can you do to make it up to me? ...
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#81164
09/28/2002 1:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
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at both universities I'm familiar with, in very different parts of the country, the ground floor is the 200 floor.
You think that's odd? From what I've heard, at my university all of the buildings, except the dorms and older buildings I think, have floor systems based on the football stadium. Apparently all of the 100 floors of the buildings are at the same elevation as the playing field, which is actually sunk down in a small valley. It's a pretty hilly campus, so some of the buildings don't even have a 100 floor. The design school, where all of my classes are, doesn't have one and the 200 level is a basement. The building is so sprawling that there are entrances (to ground outside) on floors 3, 4, 5 and 6.
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#81165
09/28/2002 1:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The building is so sprawling that there are entrances (to ground outside) on floors 3, 4, 5 and 6.And you chose to attend this school??  It sounds like a not-so-fun house maze.
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#81166
09/28/2002 3:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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my son started college at Carnegie Mellon U, (CMU) in Pittsburgh, and there was a similar building.. it was built into the hill side.. on one side you entered on the first floor, and the floors were not that big( 8 classrooms either side of the center hall.) on upper levels there were progressively more class room and offices.. till you got to the six floor, where, the floor space was more than double what it was on the first floor, and you could exit out to ground level on the top of the hill! this end of the building has 6 more floors..
the shape of the building was like a set of stairs.. each of the first 5 floors had a window less "basement' like area at the far end the was used for storage or other things that required dark (one was a small movie theater) it was an interesting use of the land, but strange to enter a building on the sixth floor!
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#81168
09/30/2002 12:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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CLEARLY a case of "Do as I say, not as I do." Sorry, Jazzo, but I find nothing redeeming about the building. I am particularly disenchanted by the institutional look of the hanging fluorescent light fixtures and the monochrome theme.
TEd
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#81169
09/30/2002 6:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
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>My school looks like this
Well if you can't trust an architect to draw a straight line ...
I like your building, Jazzo, it's better than many institutional boxes.
The top of my "to visit list" is this one -
[url]www.guggenheim-bilbao.es/ingles/edificio/el_edificio.htm[/ur]
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