#73945
06/23/2002 4:50 AM
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#73946
06/23/2002 12:47 PM
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Dear ewein: This is a dandy question. I have seen the word used several times, and know what it means.
My usual etymology sites do not have it. I'll have fun trying to find it.
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#73947
06/23/2002 1:29 PM
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I always liked frump and frumpy...it's one of those words I just enjoy saying.  This is from Bartleby/American heritage: frump
PRONUNCIATION: frmp
NOUN: 1. A girl or woman regarded as dull, plain, or unfashionable. 2. A person regarded as colorless and primly sedate.
ETYMOLOGY: Possibly short for Middle English frumple, wrinkle, from Middle Dutch verrompelen, to wrinkle : ver-, completely; see per1 in Appendix I + rompelen, to wrinkle.
OTHER FORMS: frumpi·ly —ADVERB
frumpi·ness —NOUN
frumpy —ADJECTIVE
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#73948
06/23/2002 2:58 PM
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old hand
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For some reason this thread has left me thinking about the old limerick (by Ogden Nash?) that goes,
There was a young lady from Natchez
whose clothes were in tatters and tatches
When asked of her plight,
she replied with delight,
"Sir, when I itches, I scratchez!"
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#73949
06/23/2002 4:40 PM
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A perfect piece of Nash, Geoff! Thanks! Then of course, there's also spinster and dowager. But why do single older women seem to have several nomenclatures when single men of any age are simply relegated to bachelor or confirmed bachelor? Remember the TV sitcom (US) in the 50's, Bachelor Father, starring John Forsythe, about a single father and his two daughters? It seems that people who never married, or who remained unmarried, especially women, were stigmitized to a degree by society up until the late 20th century...thus words like spinster imply a note of disparagement, such as in the phrase you old spinster. And bachelor was a "polite" way of saying a man was single. I remember these attitudes still being prevalent when I was a young child.
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#73950
06/23/2002 4:53 PM
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It was a hard fight, but I won:
blowsy: from Anglo-Saxon blyscan, bliscan, to blush, shine; blowsy
(or blowzy) connotes both ruddy, fat and flushed,
coarse-complexioned, as well as unkempt, slatternly, disheveled.
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#73951
06/23/2002 5:25 PM
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addict
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biddy is a great word, a mocking yet affectionate term for old woman. i did hear it came from from a scandinavian term for walking corpse ( not so affectionate that) but this may be one of those urban myths you wordies keep debunking for me.
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#73952
06/23/2002 7:38 PM
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old hand
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why do single older women seem to have several nomenclatures when single men of any age are simply relegated to bachelor or confirmed bachelor?Because, in a patriarchal society (is that a feminist oxymoron?) LOSER sounds really tacky! 
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#73953
06/23/2002 7:53 PM
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Dear dodyskin: I got this from www.word-detective.com :
"Biddy" is actually a very interesting word because it has two separate origins, both fairly well-documented, which is unusual for a slang term. The primary meaning of "biddy" is "chicken," and it first appeared in the early 17th century. The word probably came from the nonsense syllables used to call chickens -- something like "here biddybiddybiddy," I suppose. By the late 18th century "biddy" had been adopted as a derogatory slang term for women, much in the same unfortunate way that "chick" was in the 1960's.
However, "biddy" in this sense might have died a welcome death had it not been for the influx of Irish immigrants into the U.S. in the early 19th century. Young Irish women often had their passage paid by upper-class American families, for whom they would then work as domestic servants while they paid off their debt. The practice was so widespread that such women came to be known as "Biddies," from a shortening of "Bridget," a common Irish women's name. This use of "biddie" reinvigorated theword, and ever since it has been employed by insolent children to torment their elders.
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#73954
06/23/2002 10:05 PM
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old hand
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The primary meaning of "biddy" is "chicken,
I wonder why we sometimes still hear of a rooster called a Chanticleer, but never hear of a hen called a Pertilote, yet both eminate from the same ancient tale.
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#73955
06/23/2002 10:28 PM
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Dear Geoff: What is the difference between a rooster and a bimbo?
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#73956
06/24/2002 2:08 AM
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old hand
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#73957
06/24/2002 2:20 AM
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A rooster says "cock-a-doodle-do". A bimbo says any cock'll do.
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#73958
06/25/2002 4:54 AM
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old hand
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What a combination of definitions it seems to have--"a coarsely ruddy bloated appearance", but also "disheveled", "umkempt", "frowsy"...
ewein, now I'm so sad! (and everyone else who added to this definition!) - I always thought it was a GOOD thing to be "blowsy" - perhaps from reading poetry, in which "blowsy flowers" or "blooms" are referred to - cannot now think of an instance....But I never picked up that it meant dishevelled, etc. I always equated "blowsy" with a kind of charming disarray.
Sigh. Another dream dismantled.
Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.
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#73959
06/26/2002 1:24 AM
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Blowsy, charming disarray? no, a blowsy blonde is the kind found coming out of a bar, not a drunk, but tipsy, and a bit flushed from a pint or two, or pehaps a bit of spirit.
and somehow, along the way, a button on her blouse has come undone, and her hair or two was gone astray...but she is not a hussy, she is going home alone.. but mind you, she fancied that bloke with the eyes as black as coals, and before she left, she gave him a kiss..& he hardly knew what to do!
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#73960
06/27/2002 9:43 AM
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..and somehow, along the way, a button on her blouse has come undone, and a hair or two has gone astray..Absolutely spot on my own understanding of the word, Helen. And beautifully described.
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#73961
06/27/2002 11:28 PM
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Absolutely spot on my own understanding of the word, Helen. And beautifully described.
The lady has a way with words. Indubitably.
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#73962
06/28/2002 7:31 PM
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Bill, I've come to this rather late, and what I find in OED is rather unhelpful as to etymology: f. blowze [Of unknown origin: cf. various Du. and LG. words with the sense of ‘red’ or ‘flushed’ under blush; but some of the uses appear to be influenced by blow] blush: [Evidently related to a series of words found in Old Norse and Low German, but not known in OHG. or Gothic, pointing back to a stem *blHsi- from verbal root *blHs- in sense of ‘burn, glow, be red’. Cf. OE. *blysian in ablisian to blush, ablysung, ablys¼ung ‘redness of confusion, shame’, with MDu. blZzen, blözen (from earlier bleuzen), Du. blozen to blush, blos (formerly bleus) blush, MLG. blosen, bloschen; also OE. blysa wk. masc., blysi¼e wk. fem., ON. blys neut. ‘torch’ (Sw. bloss torch, blossa to blaze, Da. blus torch, blusse to blaze, to blush), LG. blüse flame, blüsen to set on fire, bleusteren to inflame, glow, become red. The nearest relatives of ME. blusche, blosche, blysche, are app. MLG. bloschen, LG. blüsken (Brem. Wb. I. 105): and its antecedent form is perhaps to be found in OE. blyscan, bliscan ‘rutilare’ (in the Aldhelm Glosses, Mone Q. und F. 355): but its comparatively late appearance in ME., apparently first in the north, its various vowel-forms, and the doubtful relations of the senses, esp. sense 2, all combine to leave the history of the word very obscure. OE. blyscan, bliscan, has also been conjectured to be for *blicsian, from root *blik- to shine, in which case it would not be related to the blHsi- words, nor to ME. blusche. (The Da. deponent blues to blush, may also be compared.)] all of which boils down to what you found.
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#73963
06/28/2002 8:26 PM
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Tsuwm : all of which boils down to what you (wwh) found.
But what a wonderous labyrinthine path to that same conclusion! Bravo!
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#73964
06/28/2002 8:52 PM
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'lo nuncle!
which boils down to what you found
Not quite what Bill found, though. I have no problem with the ruddy, blushy, shiny, rosy-cheeked bit. I do however, struggle a lot with blowsy as :
coarse-complexioned, as well as unkempt, slatternly, disheveled
This is primarily based on my feelings, but I've always understood blowsy as depicting a lovable middle-aged barmaid/landlady type rather than a slattern.
Helen's description fit the bill quite nicely, too.
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#73965
06/28/2002 10:25 PM
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shona, that's as may be -- I meant to comment on the etymology only.
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#73966
06/28/2002 11:30 PM
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re: a lovable middle-aged barmaid/landlady type rather than a slattern....Helen's description
have we met? I'm sorry, i don't remember you, love! come here, have a drink with me, and bit of a cuddle... you a fine looking lad, you are!
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#73967
07/01/2002 12:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Do you mean like Barbara Windsor in East Enders? :-)
- Pfranz
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#73968
07/01/2002 12:34 PM
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haven't watched the East Ender's in eons are they still on? PBS used to broadcast the show here, but it was just a soap opera. i never developed the habit of daytime soaps. East Enders had some novelty in the beginning, but quickly was just an other soap, with funny accents.
which one was Barbara Windsor? the bar maid at the Vic? (the wife had dark hair, but the daughter was a blonde? Did she take over the running of the Vic?
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#73969
07/01/2002 3:04 PM
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I meant to comment on the etymology onlyNo criticism intended, Nunc  The etymology appears to ascribe no "value" to the ruddiness either way, which is all well and good.
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#73970
07/01/2002 3:10 PM
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like Barbara Windsor in East Enders?
Nah, Pfranz - she's just plain evil !
Not far off, actually. Check out of troy's definition near the top.
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#73971
07/01/2002 3:12 PM
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Another view of blowsy (a bit out-of-season, but what the heck):
...........April by Ted Robinson
So here we are in April, in showy, blowy April,
In frowsy, blowsy April, the rowdy dowdy time
In soppy, sloppy April, in wheezy breezy April,
In ringing, stinging April, with a singing swinging rhyme.
The smiling sun of April on the violets is focal,
The sudden showers of April seek the dandelion out;
The tender airs of April make the local yokel vocal,
And he raises rustic ditties with a most melodious shout.
So here we are in April, in tipsy gypsy April,
In showery, flowery April, the twinkly, sprinkly days;
In tingly, jingly April, in highly wily April,
In mighty, flighty April with its highty-tighty ways!
The duck is fond of April, and the clucking chickabiddy
And other barnyard creatures have a try at caroling;
There's something in the air to turn a stiddy kiddy giddy,
And even I am forced to raise my croaking voice and sing.
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#73972
07/01/2002 4:04 PM
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but maybe herr Pfranz thinks i am evil. (she says, smiling coyly, and looking innocent, when all the while...)
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#73973
07/01/2002 8:18 PM
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Keiva: You were banned for starting a flame war and refusing to quit
You got re-instated by using the threat of a lawsuit, which Wordsmith
could not afford. Just for the sake of your oversized ego, you hurt a
lot of people. You are contemptible, and unwelcome here.
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#73974
07/01/2002 9:08 PM
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she says, smiling coyly, and looking innocent, when all the while...Yeah, you can't trust these Irishwomen mein herr - crones may be goddesses, but blowsy barmaids may be something (whispers) entirely different...  CRAAAAICC! of Thunder Stage LeftBanshee wails Stage Right
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#73975
07/01/2002 10:25 PM
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Wow, over in Q and A noted the important days in the celtic calendar, http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=74623i was born at the break on dawn on Beltane, as the doors of the heavens opened, and those from the spirit world, were free to visit this earthy place.. my lust cry caught their attentions, and they blessed me. so when you say but blowsy barmaids may be something (whispers) entirely different you are closer to the truth than you know..
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#73976
07/01/2002 10:58 PM
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blowsy barmaids ... Banshee wailsIf said barmaid (much to her dismay) is caught perpetrating a criminal act, can we then expect that the Outlaw Blowsy Wails? 
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#73977
07/02/2002 12:02 AM
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Keiva: You are unwelcome here because you used tactics no
gentleman would to obtain revocation of your having been
banned for starting a flame war and refusing to stop.
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#73978
07/03/2002 10:26 AM
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my lusty cry caught their attentionsYeah, and like parents everywhere they probably thought: "What the hell have I let myself in for here?!" (Actually I tell a lie - the first thoughts are far less coherent than that  )
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#73979
07/11/2002 9:03 AM
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Then of course, there's also spinster and dowager.
But why do single older women seem to have several nomenclatures when single men of any age are simply relegated to bachelor or confirmed bachelor?
____________________________________________________
Ah but, dowager is completely different to spinster.
A spinster is a single woman who has never married.
A dowager is used to refer to a lady of the aristocracy whose husband has died. She only had the title by virtue of being married to the Lord/Duke/whatever. Once he died the title is passed to the first born son. Because this has happened she no longer has the right to be known as 'Lady So-and-so' - that is now her son's wife. Instead, she becomes 'The Dowager Lady So-and-so'.
Obviously this never occurs for a man, because once he's died the title passes to the son and if his wife dies it doesn't make any difference because titles pass down the male line.
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#73980
07/11/2002 11:56 AM
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Re:A dowager is used to refer to a lady of the aristocracy whose husband has died. She only had the title by virtue of being married to the Lord/Duke/whatever. Once he died the title is passed to the first born son. Because this has happened she no longer has the right to be known as 'Lady So-and-so' - that is now her son's wife. Instead, she becomes 'The Dowager Lady So-and-so'.
Obviously this never occurs for a man, because once he's died the title passes to the son and if his wife dies it doesn't make any difference because titles pass down the male line.
Yes, well i guess its a good thing prince philip has a title in his own right... other wise he would be a dowager should QEII die before him.
the whole "passing thro the male line" thing is passe.
Dowagers true meaning might remain alive in England where it still has meaning, but in US, a any widow can be a dowager..
and as for term for old men, they do exist.. we are just less conscious of them.
in a society where a woman's prime function was seen as having children, (but a man was free to define himself) a woman who did not have children was a failure--and a word was used to define her --spinster..(an old woman still employeed doing a young womans work, because she never got down to her real work of raising children.)
a man could define himself as career, or as family man, or lord, etc.. (and yes, rich men had more options than poor..) as society has changed, "spinster" has been replaced by 'career woman'.. to signify a woman who chose options that didn't include children..
of course, language both leads and follows society, and spinster is still in use.
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