#70785
05/22/2002 1:14 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273 |
In another thread, someone said that, "we've also referred to the storm and the fury signifying nothing...". Many famous phrases end up getting misremembered, as may have happened with the above quote. With "alas, poor Yorrick I knew him well, "Lead on, MacDuff" and "foul swoop", among others, Francis has certainly been the victim of more than his fair share of them. There are others, though, "elementary, my dear Watson", "play it again Sam". Does anybody consider that any misquotes they are aware of improve on the original?
|
|
|
#70786
05/22/2002 1:47 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Often heard years ago in New England: 'Cleanliness is next to godliness, and order is Heaven's first law."
The first half is attributed to John Wesley, second half unknown. But my mother always said both parts.
She obviously thought it an improvement.
Then the little boy tempted by the cookie jar, who said: " Get thee behind me Satan, and push!" thought he was making an improvement.
|
|
|
#70787
05/22/2002 3:28 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors, and one of my pet literary peeves is to see his classic quote, Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated, which captures so well the essence of his humor, show up more and more as the drab, Rumours of my death are exaggerated, or worse, Reports of my death are exaggerated...changing this is an insult to the author, the style and originality of his wit, and to his audience. As Twain himself once said, "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning-bug," 
|
|
|
#70788
05/22/2002 11:31 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
changing this is an insult to the author, the style and originality Sweet WO'N, I feel the same way about changes that appeared when the last Methodist Hymnal came out. Somebody must have called the PC police. Where the original said something about "all men", for ex., the new version might have "people".  I would prefer that the originals have stayed the same.
|
|
|
#70789
05/22/2002 11:36 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Jackie, Faldage would tell you that "men" used to mean people.But he's unavailable right now.
|
|
|
#70790
05/22/2002 11:41 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Methodist HymnalI agree! (Except the book in my case is the CBW III = Catholic Book of Worship III) The funniest thing is that half the songs, people know by heart, with the old words, and then you get the person up front, leading the singing, with the new words, and general confusion and mumbling during the lines that have been changed. Even though the new words are right in front of us. There was a song we used to joke about (when I was a silly all-girls Catholic school type, it was: Whatsoever you do, to the least of my brothers...
[more lines + verse]... Now enter into the home of my fatherThe first line was changed to: Whatsoever you do, to the least of my peopleAnd we, being silly high-school girls that we are, changed the last line to Now enter into the home of my parentsWell, we thought it was funny at the time! 
|
|
|
#70791
05/22/2002 11:42 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Faldage would tell you that "men" used to mean people.Yeah, I know that! But try telling that to the losers who decided the songs should be re-worked...
|
|
|
#70792
05/22/2002 11:44 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I'm with you on that, Bean ol' girl... I mean person.
|
|
|
#70793
05/22/2002 12:06 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
[rant]
Yes "men" used to mean people, because for all intents and purposes, in many societies in the past, woman and children were chattel. mere possessions. less than full citizens..
even the US, we counted men, women and children in the census, and counted (to our shame) slaves as 2/3 of a person.
after the civil war, with the emancipation, there was no great joy in giving the franchise to vote to former slaves, but it was an easier thing to do than to give woman the right to vote. (its easier to go from 2/3 of a person to full person hood, than it is to go from men really equaling people and including women!)
endless years of this, and many women are a bit sensitive about the idea that 'men' or 'man' means 'people'... it meant 'people' only because women didn't 'count' in the men (of that time) views. we were better than animals, but not better than children.
No one would think "white male" could be used to generically define all males in America-- all males in America are not white. but somehow, women are hysterical when they object to men being used to as people.
[/rant]
|
|
|
#70794
05/22/2002 12:36 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
endless years of this, and many women are a bit sensitive about the idea that 'men' or 'man' means 'people'
Yeah, but lots of women aren't too incensed about it. Me included. That's all I was trying to say. I'm aware of the history of it.
|
|
|
#70795
05/22/2002 1:10 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
in the past, woman and children were chattel. mere possessions. less than full citizens..
[rant]That was when men stopped meaning people; when to be a man you had to be male. I'm talking about back when there was another word for male human beings, wæpman, to go with wifman meaning female human being. You'll not gain back full equality until you take back your manhood.[/rant]
[back to subject at hand]We don't need no steenking badges, which was a conflation of:
We don' got no badges.
We don' need no badges.
We don' have to show you any steenking badges.
Play it again, Sam in my opinion, got its extraneous again, Sam from Ilsa's previous line, Play it once, Sam, but that's just my WDI.
Gilding the lily has been discussed elsewhere and need not be mentioned again except, perhaps, to note that it, too, is a conflation.[/back]
|
|
|
#70796
05/22/2002 1:12 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
I do actually use men (sometimes) to mean people-- but its very rare. and i don't expect people to go about re-writing documents and replacing man or men with person or people... but there has been a sea change about the word...
Lots of words have changed meanings..
but i think men and man always meant 'adult male(s)'-- and that is was synonimus with people, only because adult males were the only people with any power in the society.
now, i fully realize that a adult male farm hand, or tenent farmer had very little power in 18th century (or earlier) society.. and that there were a lot more farm hands and tenents than lords. but as little power as a farm hand had, he had more than power and standing in society than his wife.
i do think women carved out places for them selves, but women legal standing were never acknowledged. a poor tenent farmer might be able to buy an old broken down nag of horse. but his wife couldn't, in many cases. she couldn't own property! (less true in England, in later years, but change has been slow)
and through out the world, remants of these types of behaviours remain-- even in modern societies like ours.
|
|
|
#70797
05/22/2002 2:33 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
I'm a most agreeable man... - Rex Harrison Give 'em Hell? I just tell 'en the truth and they call it Hell - Harry S Truman I don't know but they tell me that the english translations by FitzGerald of of Omar Khayyam's quatrains, improved the Rubaiyat.
They say (but no one will tell me) that Poe's The Raven was improved when translated into the french. - milo washington Hell Harry, I didn't come here to give 'em Hell Harry, I'm a most agreeable man. I came here to [Anti-rant]. Yes "men" used to mean people, because for all intents and purposes, in many societies in the past, woman and children were chattel. mere possessions. less than full citizens.. - of troy I agree, of troy. When seen from the perspective of modern women who have adopted the man's point of view of life, chattel does seem like a viable way to describe those unfortunate wretches. Thank God it is bullshit. Instead let us celebrate ten thousand years of men and women together overcoming overwhelming obstacles in bringing forth a new world, a world where those born after them can live in relative safety and comfort, and have a hope for a future that is free of injustice and ignorance. Yet I am a most agreeable man. I'll fight to the death for the right of women to work outside the home, to fight wars, and, in general, to do all the fun things of men. - mw PS: ...and counted (to our shame) slaves as 2/3 of a person. - of troy of troy, were you using this stat as an exaggeration in order to enhance a point? Who and when counted slaves in two-thirds?END [/anti-rant]_________________
|
|
|
#70798
05/22/2002 2:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320 |
For what it's worth:
NPR: MYTHS ABOUT THE FOUNDING
BY DINESH D’SOUZA
I frequently lecture at American high schools and colleges, and I must acknowledge that many educators do not share my enthusiasm for the founding. “The constitution was a racist document,” they say. “After all, it says that a black person is three-fifths of a human being.” I hear this all the time. Some teachers allege that even their good ideas the founders plagiarized from nonwhites. “They stole all their ideas from the Iroquois Indians,” a history teacher informed. I expressed surprise: “You mean,” I said, “that concepts like free elections, separation of powers, checks and balances and freedom of speech and religion were all invented and practiced by the Iroquois?”
“Absolutely,” I was told. And then, in a condescending tone: “Maybe it’s time you went home and did your homework.”
Well, I have done my homework, and here are the facts. The notorious three-fifths clause of the constitution, the central exhibit in the claim that the document is racist, in fact reflects no denial of the equal worth of African Americans. Indeed the three-fifths clause has nothing to say about the intrinsic worth of any individual or group. It arose in the context of a debate between the northern and southern states over the issue of political representation.
It turns out that the South wanted to count blacks as whole persons in order to increase its political power. The North wanted to count blacks as nothing, not for the purpose of rejecting their humanity, but in order to preserve and strengthen the anti-slavery majority in Congress. It was not a pro-slavery southerner but an anti-slavery northerner, James Wilson of Pennsylvania, who proposed the three-fifths compromise.
The effect of the compromise was to limit the south’s political representation and thus its ability to protect the institution of slavery. Frederick Douglass, the great black abolitionist, understood this. He praised the three-fifths clause “a downright disability laid upon the slave-holding states” depriving them of “two-fifths of their natural basis of representation.” So the notion that the three-fifths clause demonstrates the racism of the Constitution is both wrong and unfair.
|
|
|
#70799
05/22/2002 8:02 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273 |
Thank you all for your replies. I take it that's a "no" to my original question, then?
|
|
|
|
|
