|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200 |
probably an easy question but i have been wondering exactly where the phrase "it's not over till the fat lady sings" comes from. it sounds like there may be some connection with opera but with expressions you never know.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
> probably an easy question but i have been wondering exactly where the phrase "it's not over till the fat lady sings" comes from. it sounds like there may be some connection with opera but with expressions you never know. I can't believe my luck! I know this and I'm not even American...... After a baseball game is over the crowd stand to sing the 'Star-spangled banner'. In the old-days this would be sung by (as you stated) a fat lady opera singer. So the game wasn't over until the 'fat lady sang'. Thanks to my many US friends who told me this anecdote while teaching me the fascinating ins and outs of baseball. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200 |
thanks for clearing that up, and thanks for the modesty as well. of course we both know this question stemmed from my ignorance rather than your "luck" in knowing the answer...
unfortunately my only knowledge of baseball is of leslie nielsen posing as enrico palazzo in one of the naked gun movies. i just love that name enrico palazzo!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
And I thought that it was the large female at the end of the Morecambe and Wise show in the seventies - I'm not sure she ever got to sing though.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 112
member
|
|
member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 112 |
I heard a reference to this on my favourite Hollywood game show - "Hollywood Squares". Well worth a watch. Seriously!
The way it was told, a sports commentator used it towards the end of a very close-scoring game, which could have gone either way. The expression is believed to have emanated there. Refer to Keith Olbermann, who was answering the question (he is a US sportscaster, for the information of non-US members)
It is also used, I am told, at US election time, when apparently the last results to come are from Texas - the state is, for some reason, known as "The Fat Lady".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I would first like to point out that I don't know the exact origin of the expression, but I bet Brünhilde is in there somewhere. Secondly, I'd like to welcome Rubrick back into our throng after his sojourn to the tropics. Now, then. Think about this: In what sport, anywhere in the world (except perhaps at Hogwarts Academy of Witchcraft and Wizardry; I'm not far enough along in the Harry Potter series yet to know and defer to Jo aka jmh for elucidation on that point) do fans hang around after a game to sing a national anthem? In this US of A, the national anthem is sung BEFORE the first pitch, after which you can often hear a resounding "Play Ball!" emanating from the stands. Rubrick, perhaps you're confusing your story with the quote attributed to the great Yogi Berra: "It ain't over till it's over." (and as for your American friends, best stick with me kid, I won't steer ya wrong 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200 |
so the plot thickens...
is it possible that the national anthem is sung AFTER some games, like championship cup games?
i did have the feeling that the final death aria in many operas might have something to do with it, but the fat lady in that case sings all through the opera, not just at the end. that doesn't seem to match the feeling of the expression which seems to connote that the fat lady sings only at the end.
the other thing i was wondering is whether there was some music hall connection. unfortunately i know nothing about music hall shows. is it possible the phrase was borrowed for baseball from a source like this?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
Here's some comments from Nigel Rees who hosts a UK Radio 4 programme called "Quote Unquote". He seems to think that it relates to the singer at the end of a World Series Game (in the fifties?) but also to Opera. It looks like the jury is still out. http://www.executive-speaker.com/rees0003.htmlHere'a another couple of opinions: "Often associated with Wagnerian opera, specifically Brunhilde’s ‘Fire Song,’ in ‘Die Walkure,’ and the fact that Wagner may seem interminable to nonaficionados" "Originated in the United States in the 1970s. Bartlett’s ‘Familiar Quotations’ attributes the coinage to San Antonio TV sports commentator Dan Cook. Ralph Graves claims in the August 1991 issue of ‘Smithsonian’ that it has its roots in Southern proverbial lore: ‘Church ain’t out till the fat lady sings." http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-ita1.htm"Dan Cook, a sports writer with a San Antonio newspaper, was at a baseball or football match which was drawing to a close, with the outcome seemingly inevitable. Another sports writer said (in the way that sports writers do, always seeking the colourful phrase): "The rodeo isn't over 'till the bull riders ride" and Cook riposted with "The opera ain't over 'till the fat lady sings"" "When I was young the phrase was: "It's not over till the fat lady dies." This was in reference to operas which had plump divas who sang the main roles and who invariably died at the end of the opera. The story is that a father took his child to the opera and the bored child kept asking when it would be over and the father answered: "It isn't over till the fat lady dies." This actually makes far more sense than the present usage which doesn't make sense at all: "It's not over till the fat lady sings." This is usually the beginning of the opera and not the end at all. How do you think it got changed? Why is the present pointless usage persisting?" http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/4/messages/1134.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
The short answer is "no, it's not an easy question"!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 200 |
jmh, great article. thankyou. it suggests that this was a situation WAITING for an expression i.e. wait for the end. but the opera connection is dismissed too soon, i think. there are operas where the heroine does sing a big aria at the end, purcell's "dido and anaeas" is one. in tosca she does sing, but not exactly an aria, but puccini was not a conventional aria/recitative man. in many operas the heroine dies before the end of the opera, like othello, and she can sing a hugely lengthy aria while dying. this is just asking for someone to make fun of it. and compare "it's not over till the fat lady sings" with "it's not over till the short tenor in platform shoes sings" for colour.
but what is the church connection? could someone enlighten me as to what service concluded with a fat lady singing?
and with bill clinton and andre agassi chipping in could it be this expression is gaining popularity when it's exactly the wrong era to be referring to "fat ladies" at all?
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,810
Members9,187
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
373
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
