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stranger
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Hello,
I'm curious why or how English lost its second person pronouns like thee, thou, and ye. Are there particular historical reasons or is it just a linguistic fluke?
Thanks!
Mushtaq
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I wonder too, especially as "usted" and "vous" are still used in Spanish and French.
I was never quite sure when to "tu" and when to "usted" - its probably one of those things that makes a foreigner look quite rude in Spain.
Perhaps we lost them because we just weren't polite enough to want to keep them? Perhaps it was just that we had too many words?
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Pooh-Bah
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Apparently Quakers still use the term "thee" as in the example:
Perhaps thee has noticed the point in our Friends Journal on February 15 - Friend 1964.
Does anyone know if the term is still used?
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>>Perhaps thee has noticed the point in our Friends Journal on February 15 - Friend 1964<<
I thought that was 'thou' as in
I, me, my, mine
thou, thee, thy, thine
he, him, his, his
etcetera. Or have I just been misled by 'me' and 'thee' sounding similar?
As for the Quakers, I also think they still use 'thou' and 'thee', but don't know any to ask!
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#3658
06/29/2000 11:25 AM
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Hail to thee, Jo and Bridget, from a 'quakerly' paulb whose wife is a Quaker. Certainly in Australia, the form 'thee' is not used in normal conversation but crops up occasionally in a more lighthearted sense. Incidentally one of the nice things about Quakers is that they do not use titles (Mr, Mrs etc); instead they use the whole name eg Dear John Smith. This applies to children as well, who will freely address adults by their full name. It sure beats the status thing!
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Pooh-Bah
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You would say "Fare thee well" so the quotation fits in with that usage.
I tend to ignore Mr & Mrs (I'm a Ms.!!!) and prefer to use whole names - perhaps I should be a Quaker.
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Carpal Tunnel
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> I thought that was 'thou' as in
I, me, my, mine
arrrgggh! I listened to the "Let It Be" CD the other day and ever since I've had one of the songs stuck in my head (is there a word for that?), and now this.
All through the day I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.
All through the night I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.
I-me-me mine, I-me-me mine,
I-me-me mine, I-me-me mine.
All I can hear I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.
Everyone's saying it,
All through the day I me mine.
All through your life I me mine.
[apologies to all who end up with this stuck in their heads]
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stranger
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Isn't that what's known as a (not an) "haunting tune"? But that doesn't quite convey how annoying it can be... However, the German word for a song you can't get out of your head sure does: "Ohrwurm". Yuk.
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I cannae say why we have lost the second person pronouns, when both the Latin languages and the Germanic have kept them. I'm curious and will nose around.
Meanwhile, "thou" is the nominative, equivalent to "I". "Thee" is the objective, equivalent to "me". "Fare thee well" would be parsed: {May it} fare {to} thee well.
And as for the Ohrwurm, I'd rather have a bookworm.
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>>I was never quite sure when to "tu" and when to "usted"<<
When I was learning French at school, I was taught that "tu" was the familiar form of address - to a friend, peer, or sometimes to one who was perceived as "inferior" (a servant, a student, etc.)
"Vous" would be the opposite - to one's superior.
I suppose the same rule would apply to Spanish.
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Correct, David. And the same goes for "Sie" (the polite form of address in German) and "Du" (the familiar form, and cognate to the lost-but-not-forgotten "thou" in English).
When in doubt, we native English speakers should always go for the polite form of address - better to be smiled at while addressing a child as "usted" than to be frowned upon while addressing a grandmotherly type as "tu."
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stranger
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If I may bring up German again, where the use of the dual system of second person pronouns is alive and well: the inferior/superior distinction ("du" and "Sie", respectively) aptly sums up how it works. However, some of the fine points of the game are rather interesting. My favorite example: when hikers reach a certain altitude (I've forgotten how high, but pretty high up), everyone is permitted, even expected to address each other with the familiar "du" form of address!
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stranger
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I like the expression "ear candy" ("mind candy" is even better), but it seems to refer only to music that is easy and pleasant to listen to, but not music you can't get out of your head. So "Ohrwurm", ugly as it sounds, is probably too positive in its connotations to fit the gap of the word you were looking for to denote the state in which a tune won't stop playing in your head. Oh well.
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Pooh-Bah
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I'll give you the fuller quote about the Quaker "thee" and you can decide for yourselves.
... It is also used as nominative case (a use unaccounted for) by Quakers (Perhaps thee has noticed the point in our Friends journal ...)
So he acknowledges that the usage is unusual. I would be suprised if the quotation were a mistake. There were, presumably, other examples.
Perhaps Paulb can enlighten us.
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#3669
06/30/2000 11:36 AM
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Finally talked to a friend (not Friend) of mine who grew up
in a Quaker family here in the States. She said her
great-aunts, who I'm guessing must have been born in the
early part of the century, did not use thee, etc.
She and I both thought that perhaps some of the more strict
groups might still use these terms.
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#3670
06/30/2000 11:40 AM
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I've only heard 'thee' used in a lighthearted sense, and I don't think I've ever seen it written in [Australian] Quaker publications. It may still be use in the more evangelical Quaker communities in America and, possibly (although I doubt it) in Africa.
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Tsuwm--
>>and ever since I've had one of the songs stuck in my head (is there a word for that?) <<
Yes, it's a form of obsession, or obsessive thinking:
perseverance of thought. (That's per-SEV-er-ance, not
per-se-VER-ance).
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#3672
07/01/2000 12:38 PM
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> I was never quite sure when to "tu" and when to "usted" - its probably one of those things that makes a foreigner look quite rude in Spain. It’s so hard for me using the same “you” with a friend or with a stranger!. We use “tu” with friends, family or young people, and when we want to slight a stranger. We even have the word “tutear” that is using “tu” with somebody. And we can say with dignity: “How do you (usted) dare ‘tutearme’?”. One sad experience that almost every Spaniard have to undergo in his life is when for first time a stranger young person address you using “usted”. You think “How a boy like me is using ‘usted’ when talking to me?. Or, maybe, I’m no longer a boy?”.  Juan Maria.
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#3673
07/01/2000 10:37 PM
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>>One sad experience that almost every Spaniard have to undergo in his life is when for first time a stranger young person address you using “usted”. You think “How a boy like me is using ‘usted’ when talking to me?. Or, maybe, I’m no longer a boy?”. << Juanmaria, I can sympathise! Somehow, somewhen, between visits to France, I graduated from being addressed by strangers as Mademoiselle to being Madame! Made me feel like I'd aged ten years, gone grey and put on forty pounds... It didn't help that I had aged (some, but not ten) years, gone (a little, round the temples) grey and put on (some, not forty) pounds!
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enthusiast
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In Italy we no longer use "voi" (= vous, you plural) as a polite form; it is just used now in the South, and it is archaic.
It seems strange enough, but the polite form, even addressing to an important man, is "Lei" (=She)!
Ciao
Emanuela
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>>It seems strange enough, but the polite form, even addressing to an important man, is "Lei" (=She)!<<
Whoa, that IS strange, E! (hope lei don't mind me shortening your name--let me know if lei do.)
How'd that happen, do lei know?
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Honestly, you don't know when you're well off.  Just the choice between tu and usted. If only life were that simple here. There are about a dozen possibilities in Indonesian. After three pages of discussing the issue, my grammar book concludes "The above discussion of pronouns and pronoun substitutes is far from exhaustive. Many other forms occur,...". What I do like, and I wish English had, is two forms of we. Indonesian has kita and kami . Kita is we, including you. Kami is we, not including you. So if I say, for example, "kita will meet my mother at the airport", you're coming to the airport. If I say "kami will meet my mother at the airport", you're not coming. Bingley
Bingley
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>>...first time a stranger young person address you using “usted”...<<
The Afrikaans have a similar custom: the word "Oom" means "Uncle", and "Tannie" means "Aunt". Younger people use it as a mark of respect, regardless of the relationship to whomever is being addressed. I was nineteen when I was first called "Oom". I didn't get over it until years later when my first nephew was born, and I felt I had earned the title!
Wish I knew a way to "mark-up" those words to convey the sounds!
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When I was a child we always used to call our parents' friends Auntie Pam or Uncle Godfrey or whatever their names were.
Bingley
Bingley
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>What I do like, and I wish English had, is two forms of we. Indonesian has kita and kami. Kita is we, including you. Kami is we, not including you.
Hey oom -or are you a tannie?- those words are wonderful!. I would like having them in Spanish too, this “Kami” is the ultimate word-weapon, left on the wrong hands might spread havoc!.
Juan Maria.
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<we always used to call our parents' friends Auntie Pam or Uncle Godfrey or whatever their names were.>
Yeah, that was my experience too. I had so many honorary aunts and uncles that I was well into my teens before I managed to sort out who was what.
Is this a common convention? I suspect so. Are there any interesting similar usages in places other than Indonesia and Oz? (I am afraid I have lost track of your familial origins, Bingley, although I think I read something somewhere here.)
Kindest rgds,
rhapsody lute, aka lusy
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Amongst the many Indonesian forms of address, which can also be used instead of pronouns, are om and tante , taken from the Dutch words for uncle and aunt. They can be used for any older or socially superior person you feel close to as well as your biological uncle and aunt. Some friends of mine, for example, call their boss tante .
I've lived in Indonesia for a long time, but I'm from the South East of England.
Bingley
Bingley
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>>I had so many honorary aunts and uncles that I was well into my teens before I managed to sort out who was what. << Me, too, rhapsody lute, aka lusy. The practise was common in Rhodesia (can't get used to calling my native land Zimbabwe), and it still applies in South Africa, amongst both English and Afrikaans speakers. I dislike the custom and encourage my children's friends to call me David. My nephews/nieces call me "Uncle David" only when they want to annoy me!  Is there a collective/descriptive noun for nieces/nephews?
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#3683
07/04/2000 11:06 AM
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<is there a collective/descriptive noun for nieces/nephews?>
Lipton's wonderful collection of collective nouns "An exaltation of larks" doesn't seem to include nieces/nephews but does have:
a descent of relatives
an expectation of heirs
an ingratitude of children
a caper of kids
a leer of boys
a giggle of girls
and [off topic?] a mutter of mother-in-laws.
Incidentally, David108, do your older friends ever refer to you as DavidCVIII?
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>>Incidentally, David108, do your older friends ever refer to you as DavidCVIII? << Thanks, paulb, for the best laugh of the day!  The answer is no, but those of my childrens' peers who have earned the right to do so, refer to me as one of the "wrinklies". I'm about ready for that face-lift, now, thank you! 
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Interestingly in Australia the term "youse" is used as the 2nd person plural pronoun (although admittedly not by "educated" Australians, who frown on it)
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>>in Australia the term "youse" is used as the 2nd person plural pronoun<<
It is used that way plus the singular, if I listened to the
people on TV right, in parts of the northeastern U.S., too.
Maybe Brooklyn, or Chicago--one of them thar places! This may be a stereotype I picked up from TV, but I think it was
used by mafiosos.
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old hand
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back on the subject of losing old fashioned pronouns. . .Is it possible that they were taken away in colonial rebellion against Britain? Often the colonies discarded old world customs because they were rebelling, and perhaps this is one?
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I'm interested that nobody past the first post in this thread mentioned the long-lamented 'ye'. Back in Middle English, the second person singular was (nominative, objective, genitive, possessive):
thou, thee, thy/thine*, thine
* similar to a/an which persists today
and the plural forms were:
ye, you, your, yours
(The sounds have changed a bit too, so I'm simplifying a bit.) Some time around King James, 'you' began its great levelling of the second person when it took over the nominative plural, changing that form to
you, you, your, yours
This was also the correct form for addressing a singular person who was your social superior, as in most of the other western European languages. In English, though, the use of 'thou/thee' fell completely out of favour for no apparent reason.
Amusingly, in modern usage, 'you' used generically means, almost invariably, the singular form. Think about it; if you're addressing a group, would you say, 'Do you want to go to the rink?' When I do it, I usually wind up saying, 'Do you guys want...' or 'Do you all want...' Or is this just a Canadianism?
Also somewhere along the way the use of 'mine' before a vowel, instead of 'my', fell out of favour. Why did it happen? It just did. Languages mutate, just like genes do. There doesn't have to be a reason, and usually there isn't.
--
Trevor Green
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music."
--
Trevor Green
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music."
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Pooh-Bah
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<we always used to call our parents' friends Auntie Pam or Uncle Godfrey or whatever their names were.>
Me too. It took me years to work out the real ones from the imaginary ones. The imaginary ones were always so much more fun. I've explained that to my children as they are sadly lacking in the aunt and uncle department. Fortunately my friends ahve been very happy to fill in the gaps (especially at Christmas and birthdays) but I think the practice of calling them uncles and aunts had fallen out of favour. I think we should have a new term for honoured family friend. We have a good collection of god-parents and have added quite a few honorary godparents to the list (it gets a bit tricky explaining the range of religions and un-religions involved), perhaps Aunt and Uncles would have been simpler.
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Pooh-Bah
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I like a caper of kids. One of my inventions is:
a vandalism of toddlers (especially when I had to tidy up the house after them)
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>>you, you, your, yours This was also the correct form for addressing a singular person who was your social superior, as in most of the other western European languages. In English, though, the use of 'thou/thee' fell completely out of favour for no apparent reason.<< A possible reason would be that the English reputation for politeness is founded in fact? English speakers were so polite that they addressed everyone as a superior and the familiar 2nd person singular disappeared!
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>>the long-lamented 'ye'<< is alive and kicking in Ireland. At least the west. >>'you' used generically means, almost invariably, the singular form. Think about it; if you're addressing a group, would you say, 'Do you want to go to the rink?' When I do it, I usually wind up saying, 'Do you guys want...' or 'Do you all want...' Or is this just a Canadianism?<< I'd say a North Americanism. Sorry, mrdeath, but I'd ask the question just as you first pose it. As for 'you guys', it took me a very long time to get used to being called a guy - where I grew up a guy was definitely male!  ...Ah, the joys of an international language!
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>>where I grew up a guy was definitely male!<<
Same here, Bridget!! I am not, never have been, and never
WILL BE male!!
This drives me crazy! If I'm in a group and somebody says,
"You guys", I have to be feeling extraordinarily kindly disposed towards the speaker in order to respond at all.
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