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Where does sourdough bread come into all of this? Is it soda bread pronounced differently?
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Pooh-Bah
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Sourdough bread is quite lovely and also quite different. Soda bread does not have any yeast and relies on the action of the baking soda to make the bread rise. http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~owls/sodabred.htmSourdough uses a yeast "starter" which is well described in the following website http://joejaworski.com/bread1.htmThe great thing about Sourdough bread is, for me, that it doesn't have any added sugar. When I lived in New York for a while in the early eighties I spent ages trailing round shops in search of bread that was not heavily manufactured. I didn't discover any bread that did not taste sweet. I began to wonder if it was possible to make bread without sugar (I checked with a baker back here, the yeast works quite happily without sugar). I was delighted when I went back to the USA in the early nineties to discover the popularity of sourdough bread. I'm sure it was there all the time, I was just looking in the wrong places!
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I am typing this out timorously because I know I am going to put my foot in (the dough?) when it comes to describing the differences between the breads, and my ignorance begins to show. But I feel the list won't be complete (for me) without our Indian breads. So here goes…
Our traditional breads in India are of the unleavened variety. The generic name for bread is called Roti (pronounced roeti). Roti is unleavened - a chapatti is a Roti. If you want to buy the kind of bread/rolls of the West, in India you ask for "Double Roti". I don't why double.
Then there are the kinds of breads that are not cooked in the homes of India but they are ever present in an Indian meal at a hotel. They are :-
Nan - pronounced naan, the dough is stuck to the side of the tandoor (oven) and when it is done it falls of and cooks a bit on the charcoal in the oven. Apart from that what I know about this bread is if not eaten fresh you have bare you teeth and pull like a dog to bite into it.
Kulcha - this is the sibling of a nan. The difference that I know of is a Kulcha has Onion and Corriander stuck on top of it and is shaped round. Where as Naan doesn't and is triangular.
Roomali Roti - This is a bread with a character. I like it cos it is light on the stomach. "Roomal" means handkerchief. And Roomali is "Handkerchief like" . The Roti spread out by twirling the hands on top of the head. Then it is dropped on the bottom of a pot that is placed upside down on the fire. And there it cooks. The roti is so thin that you can see through it. And when served it is folded like one folds a handkerchief.
Paratha - This is made in the homes of India. What makes a Paratha different from the rest is it is stuffed with Potato or white radish or cauliflower. It is thick with the stuffing inside it and a meal in its self. It needs a lot of oil and not exactly up Health Street, and that is the reason why it is so tasty
Puri - (pronounced poorie) Get the most marks for taste and the least marks for health. It is deep fried in oil. And when dough (made from wheat) is put on oil the air inside expands and the Puri swells in to a ball. A Puri also has character - of a different kind.
P.S I made the mistake of spell checking this, Shakespeare the Spell Checker went beserk with all the Indian words.
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Pooh-Bah
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Thank you for your definitions. I hadn't realised that nan was cooked on the side of the oven - I can see why it is so hard to cook at home.
I used to live near an South Indian vegetarian restaurant that served dosa. Would you count that as bread too. My favourite one was, I think, called paper dosa it was served in a great big fan shape looking like one of those elegantly folded napkins rising high above the plate.
The same restaurant made wonderful puris which were floated on a dish full of something made of yoghurt (like a raita).
The other staple of British Indian restaurants is the poppadom which I suppose is more like a big crisp (chip) than bread. I'm not sure if you would classify it with the breads.
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I'd like to add 'bap' to your list. I think it is a Yorkshire word but wouldn't bet on it.
And if you really want to widen the discussion you need to look at all the things they'll offer you in a sandwich shop in Sydney - pitta bread, lavash, focaccia and so on. One of the best things about living in a melting pot of immigration!
What about mantou - Chinese steamed roll made from wheat, with or without filling? IS this a bread or a dumpling?
What makes bread bread? Is it the ingredients or the cooking methods or both?
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No. Dosas can't be classified as bread. They have a pride of place in the Indian cuisine all of their own. It would (I think) be more appropriate to call them a kind of pancake. The batter is made out of rice flour and black gram lentils. You spread it out on a skillet and cook it. Later stuffed with potato it becomes Masala Dosa. Paper Dosas we get in India are 2 feet long. They carry on way after plate gets over. You need some appetite to eat one.
Popaddams are called Papads here. They would again not be bread but would come under the wafers, chips or crisps family.
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#3126
06/27/2000 10:58 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>Dosas can't be classified as bread
Thanks, I've always wondered how they were made.
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#3127
06/27/2000 11:15 AM
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Avy--
Thank you for that fascinating list!
Bridget--
>>What makes bread bread? Is it the ingredients or the cooking methods or both?<< Good point. I've never considered cornbread to be bread, interestingly. It's too different. Never mind that bread is part of its name!
To all, but esp. Jo--
in one of Mary Stewart's books, she mentions "singin' hinnies". What are these, some kind of scone? The story
takes place in Scotland or England, as I recall.
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#3128
06/27/2000 11:21 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>I'd like to add 'bap' to your list. I think it is a Yorkshire word but wouldn't bet on it.
Yes it is a popular word in Yorkshire and parts of Lancashire too, I'm not sure how far it travels as a common word. Baps are usually fairly large slightly domed soft rolls with a dusting of flour. In Edinburgh the same kind of thing is called a "morning roll", as far as I see that's because they seem to go so hard if you keep them for long.
Pitta bread and all the other Mediterranean flat breads are common now. Once in the late seventies my friend decided to make kebabs - she described pitta bread to us but we couldn't find it in any of the shops - it shows how much things have changed.
Focaccia I know, especially the garlic and herbed varieties. Ciabatta is another popular Italian bread made with olive oil.
German rye bread and Pumpernickle are readily available now.
Lavash - I've not heard of.
The Chinese steamed rolls tend to be called dumplings.
This makes it hard to find a definition for bread. It's regarded as a staple in the diets of many countries - it is immortalised in the term "daily bread". I think that most of the varieties mentioned use flour (mainly wheat flour) and most(but not all) are baked in some kind of oven. Some have yeast, others don't. Some have fat (biscuit, ciabatta), most don't. Some are cooked in a pan. Is there a definition?
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In reply to:
>I'd like to add 'bap' to your list. I think it is a Yorkshire word but wouldn't bet on it.
Yes it is a popular word in Yorkshire and parts of Lancashire too, I'm not sure how far it travels as a common word. Baps are usually fairly large slightly domed soft rolls with a dusting of flour.
I grew up in Bucks in the South East of England and although the things themselves weren't that common, we did call them baps whenever we came across them. As I remember, they were the roll of choice for homemade burgers.
Bingley
Bingley
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>>I'd like to add 'bap' to your list... ...I'm not sure how far it travels as a common word.<< It travels to New Zealand, certainly. Although I haven't yet found a baker who makes one that is halfway palatable!  We also get panini, and the flat dough that is used to wrap Kebabs. Pita bread is a rarity! In South Africa, a kebab is made of alternate pieces of meat, onion, tomato, mushroom, etc., on a skewer, grilled over an open flame. That which is called "Kebab" here is known as "Schwarma" in South Africa, and in most Middle eastern countries.
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Jo,
Does your post with the AWArD for most number of replies?
I should think it does. Its good enough to be documented.
Avy
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Lavash is a round bread from, I believe, the Balkan area.
My attempt at making it fell flat--my yeast was too old, as
I recall (threw away the recipe in disgust).
Jo, I agree that this should not become a recipe exchange Board, but I can't resist posting this TWO-ingredient
bread that the worst cook in the world could make:
Two and two-thirds Cups of self-rising flour(NOT cake flour)
12 ounces of beer, freshly opened.
Heat oven to 375F.
Lightly grease a 9x5x3-inch loaf pan.
Put flour in a medium bowl. Add beer and stir with a
rubber spatula just until mixed. Scrape into prepared pan.
Bake 50 to 55 minutes until top is lightly browned, sides pull away from the pan, and a knife inserted in the center
comes out clean. Let it sit in the pan on a wire rack for
five minutes, then turn it out onto the rack to cool.
This does have a beery flavor, but I like the bread anyway.
My husband really enjoyed making it.
Sorry, all those who are metric/Centigrade.
All feel free to take me to task for posting a recipe--I
just thought it was so unusual.
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<In South Africa, a kebab is made of alternate pieces of meat, onion, tomato, mushroom, etc., on a skewer, grilled over an open flame. That which is called "Kebab" here is known as "Schwarma" in South Africa, and in most Middle eastern countries.>
I thought there was a distinction between shish kebab ('stuff' on a stick, as you are talking about in South Africa) and doner kebab ('stuff' in a pitta bread) and possibly several other kinds of kebab that I can't remember at all now. Anyone got any ideas?
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<<Lavash is a round bread from, I believe, the Balkan area.
My attempt at making it fell flat--my yeast was too old, as
I recall (threw away the recipe in disgust).>>
In Sydney at least, lavash is not necessarily round. You can buy it in squares and it is a flat malleable bread which is used to make 'wraps' - ie spread your ingredients on it and roll up to eat.
Apparently (my partner works for Australia's second largest baker, though not in the factory) it also comes in yeasted and unyeasted versions. Sorry, but recipes are trade secrets - not that that will sto me testing yours!
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#3136
06/29/2000 11:37 AM
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OH!! Jo, THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU !!!!!!! These are SO COOL!!!!!!!! Oh, the one even said WHY they're called singin' hinnies! How neat! (That reminded me of how pleased I was to learn why bubble-and-squeak got its name.) Oh, you have just made my day! 
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Bridget
There is the Shish Kebab, Tangdi Kebab, Kalmi Kabab, Peshawari Kebab, Lukhnavi Kebab ... (many more). Anything that is a piece of boneless meat and is barbecued is a Kebab.
In the languages of the subcontinent - the phrase that has a meaning similar to "Two is company, three is a crowd" (meaning you are unwanted) is "You're a being a bone in the Kebab."
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>>"You're a being a bone in the Kebab."<<
Thanks, Avy! I'll have to try that on some
unsuspecting soul.
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As this relates to "English as a Local Language", I'll see if I can move it up the list a little as when I try to look at it it merges with another thread!
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#3140
11/07/2000 10:14 AM
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Jo
Besides your 'standard' dosa, a staple of South Indian homes, there are a number of related types. You have mentioned the masala dosa already, as well as the paper dosa (luxurious fare at 'Udipi' restaurants throughout India). There is also the delumptious (Enid Blyton anyone) ghee dosa (or nayya dosa, as we sometimes called it). Plus the truly scrumplicious, if you like the type, rawa dosa - made from a different batter, with a rougher texture and different flavour. Then (for the real specialists in South Indian food) there are things called aapams, cooked somewhat like a dosa, but in a bowl, so the centres becomes think and spongy. Which leads us along the continuum to idlis - steamed flying-saucer shaped 'foods' made from a batter very similar to that of dosas (identical, in some households).
Finally, for what it's worth, good dosa 'mixture', should be prepared by grinding it in a large stone mortar and pestle, and left to ferment slightly overnight.
Ahhh... brings back the memories of nayya dosa and podi. (Do they have that in Bangalore, Avy?)
cheer
the sunshine (momentarily sidetracked) warrior
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Thanks Shanks for stopping from the main cut and thrust of debate momentarily to cast your thoughts back to dosas. I'm feeling quite hungry already.
I had some funny flying saucer things once (in some kind of yoghurty sauce). I expect they would taste excellent with lashings of ginger beer.
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Thanks Shanks for stopping from the main cut and thrust of debate momentarily to cast your thoughts back to dosas.
What? You want me to talk about the US Presidential election farce instead? Gore has about 200,000 more of the popular vote, but Bush will probably be President because he will win Florida by 324 votes. And the Labour party in this country (sorry Tony, New Labour) is running scared of proportional representation. Anyone want to pay a huge advance for my forthcoming book: "How to be a politican and prevent democratic representation"?
Rant mode off. I think I should stick to arcane breads...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#3143
11/08/2000 10:20 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>US Presidential election farce instead
As you know Shanks, we are quite capable of having our own electoral farces. Wasn't one of Margaret Thatcher's victories "landslide" based on her only winning 33% of the vote? Come to Scotland where PR is doing OK (I think). The only problem was that the voting paper was about half a mile long and we had three different sets of papers to deal with. Back to bread rolls, I think.
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#3144
11/08/2000 11:48 AM
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Politics = bread + circus
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. And the Labour party in this country (sorry Tony, New Labour) is running scared of proportional representation.There was a distinct cooling in the relationship between the UK and NZ wehn NZ introduced Mixed Member PR. The Queen herself was in a position to open NZ's Parliament at the time, so she had to read one speech from the throne extolling MMPR, and another back home explaining why it is an evil to be shunned!
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#3146
11/08/2000 10:43 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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it's politics again, please feel free not to read this post if you prefer (understandably) not to discuss politicsMax - How does MMPR different to the system we have in Scotland? The Scottish Parliament consists of 129 members (MSPs) 73 of whom were directly elected on a constituency basis with 56 additional members elected from 8 regions by PR. I've looked it up and have discovered that it is called Additional Member PR. I know that people found the two (and in some cases, 3) separate voting slips very confusing. I found a relevant Scottish Parliament report on voter awareness and was particularly interested in the comment: "However, by May '99 around one in 5 respondents (21%) still claimed to understand nothing at all about the voting system for the Scottish Parliament." http://www.scotland.gov.uk/cru/kd01/assess07.htmI wonder if New Zealand fared any better? [P.S. I just found this but I still don't see the difference: http://home.golden.net/~world/articles/feb232000.htm]
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#3147
11/08/2000 11:26 PM
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I think it's all about nomenclature - that which we call an MMPR Parliament, would by any other name, be the same collection of politicians. NZ's system is basically this - 120 seats in Parliament about 60 electorate seats, the difference elected by PR - 5% threshhold for seats under PR, but if any party wins an electorate seat, it will get seats in the House proportionate to its total vote. Thus, the Greens, who got about 4.7% of the vote would have been excluded from Parliament but for the fact that they won an electorate sdeat, which meant that they got 5 seats in the house - much to the chagrin of the NZ Labour Party which would have been able to govern alone had The Greens not got those seats. It's incredibly complicated, but it is representational, unlike the US system, and our old FPP, where it is quite possible to win outright with a minority of the popular vote. This seems very likely to happen in the present US election - a president elected on a minority of the popular vote, and this happened many times in NZ under first-past-the-post. As an abstract, I think PR is fundamentally closer to pure democracy than FPP, but whether it results in better government, I am not qualified to say, especially as I choose not to vote.
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yes, jo, fresh hot country biscuits are wonderful-- but jackies are even better than yours. i am sure, Not that you aren't a wonder cook.
Its not just the changes that come from measuring, but the flour. American flour tends to be softer (the wheat kernel) than most european flours. (Julia child, i believe, in Mastering the art of french cooking did a bit of rant, on how to make real french style bread, and that you couldn't unless you started in the wheat fields!)
Next time try mixing your standard flour with half "cake flour" cake flour has less gluten, and is "Softer"
The moisture level of the flour makes a difference too, since american flour is less dry, a given volume usually weighs more, since it has been bleached white, and not aged white. and that effects the biscuits, too.
Biscuits, hot from the oven are a form of heaven!
I also like soda bread-- especially brown bread, made with whole wheat and oat flours, irish style. but again because of the differences in flours, its always better in ireland.
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#3149
11/09/2000 10:07 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm hopelessly confused by phrases like "cake flour" ans "sweet milk". We have plain flour (without any raising agent), self-raising flour (with), strong flour (for bread) and then different kinds of wholwheat or wholemeal flour depending on the amount of the husk included (I think). So is cake flour like "plain flour" or "self raising flour". I have also seen references to "all purpose flour" - which I assume is plain flour but may be wrong.
Jackies tells me that "sweet milk" isn't milk with sugar it just isn't buttermilk. I don't know why we don't seem to use buttermilk here, I never see it in the shops. I know that it is popular in Ireland.
I think that we have the same problem as you in making good french bread. I think that the better shops import the flour from France as our flour just doesn't come out right.
Next time I come back from America, I'm bound to have the drugs squad going through my bags. They will be full of white powdery stuff that I want to try out at home!
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A wise man in France told me in the year 1967, and it stuck in my memory: "la politique est la sauce ŕ laquelle on nous met pour nous manger"
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Growing up in a "blended" family (Cinderella's wicked "blended"mother?), in which only one parent had a passion for Indian foods, such delights were rare. Hence I am constantly tormented by the delicious aromas that pervade the homes of my subcontintental friends and acquaintances. I am also a big fan of the late Freddie Mercury.In homage to both of these interests, I proffer the folowing, which I received some time ago, from a source now forgotten. As you read it, please sing it to yourself, to the tune of Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody
Subject: INDIAN CURRY RHAPSODY
Naan, just killed a man
poppadom against his head
Had lime pickle now he's dead.
Naan, dinner's just begun
But now I'm gonna crap it all away.
Naan, ooh, ooh
Didn't mean to make you cry
Seen nothing yet just see the loo tomorrow
Curry on, curry on
Cause nothing really Madras.
Too late, my dinner's gone
Sends shivers down my spine
Rectum aching all the time
Goodbye onion bhaji, I've got to go
Gotta leave you all behind and use the loo.
Naan, ooh, ooh
This doopiaza is so mild
I sometimes wish we'd never come here at all.
<<guitar solo>>
I see a little chicken tikka on the side
Rogan Josh, Rogan Josh, pass the chutney made of mango
Vindaloo does nicely
Very very spicy
Meat!
Byriani (Byriani)
Byriani (Byriani)
Byriani and a naan
(A vindaloo loo loo loo)
I've eaten balti, somebody help me
He's eaten balti, get him to the lavatory
Stand you well back
'Case the loo is quarantined...
Here it comes
There it goes
Technicolor yawn
I chunder
No!
It's coming up again
(There he goes)
I chunder, it's coming back again (There he goes)
Coming back again (up again)
Here it comes again.
(No no no no no no NO)
On my knees, I'm on my knees
On his knees, Oh, there he goes
This vindaloo
Is about to wreck my guts
Poor me.. poor me...poor meee!
<<guitar solo
So you think you can chunder and then feel alright?
So you try to eat curry and drink beer all night?
Oh maybe, But now you'll puke like a baby
Just had to come out
It just had to come right out in here.
<<guitar solo>>
[slow bit}
Korma, sag or bhuna
bhaji, balti or naan
Nothing makes a difference
Nothing makes a difference
To meee....
Anyway, the wind blows....shshshsh
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MAX, that is utterly disGUSTing, she said, after picking herself up off the floor from laughing so hard!
Beats "On Top of Spaghetti" all to 'pieces'!
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> Ahhh... brings back the memories of nayya dosa and podi. (Do they have that in > Bangalore, Avy?) Sorry shanks, I am always late in on everything. No, we don't get Nayya Dosas in the restaurants here. We get Appams. Appams and hot mutton stew is what many Bangaloreans go out to eat as their Sunday breakfast (Heavy - yes, but delicious!). In Kerala you get toddy Appams, the taste of which is of the heavens. Max :  I laughed a lot, but was that Farookh who just stirred?
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I loved your Bohemian Masala, Max. I've circulated to some fo my friends (I'll let you know if they are still speaking to me). It fits the tune so well!
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Oy, you gents were not privy to the ballots drawn up by Québec`s ruling party for our referendums (an election type vote system where the population is polled for their opinion)
For some twenty years, the Parti Québécois (do NOT call them the Québec Party as they will all stone you to death - and your children too - for translating a French name into English) has been trying to convince the Québec population that it would be in their best interests to separate from Canada.
In order to confuse the people in general, and the older generation in particular (most being nationalists), the referendum votes - known as "The Questions" are generally phrased something like this...
"do you not agree with a possibility that can perhaps be considered that we hold a discussion as to the situation of Québec"
Yes or no.
It can take months just to get them to word the question in a bit of a clearer fashion.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Flour-- Read Joy of Cooking (cookbook) chapter on Know your ingredients About flour.
All purpose flour is just that, generally good for most things.
Soft (or Cake flour) is flour that has been milled from a "soft" variety of wheat
Bread Flour is milled from "hard" wheat.
Gluten, a protein of wheat is what defines hard and soft. For Bread, you want gluten, it forms the elastic structure that the yeast works against, and allows the bread to rise. It also give the bread is nice chewy texture.
For cake, you don't want nice chewy texture, you want tender crumbs, for the cake to just hold together. Two factors at work, low gluten and low agitation (you don't "knead" a cake or even mix it for 10 or 15 minutes, as you do with bread)
Winter wheat (wheat sown in the fall, that winters over, and is harvest early in the spring) tend to be a hard wheat. Wondra flour, which is sold in a canister, and marketed as being perfect for thickening gravy and sause, is the the hardest wheat. if you just take some samples, and feel the flour, (cake, all purpose, bread and Wondra) you can actually feel that some flour is softer. Face powder used to be made from (and still often is) wheat flour. if you put some cake flour in you hands, and feel it, and then some wondra, you would quickly realize, you'd want cake flour for your face! you can feel the softness.
And as for buttermilk, you can in most american stores buy small cans of dried powdered buttermilk. It need to be refrigerated after opening, (just like powdered whole milk), but it stays usable for 6 month to a year.
and since this is a word site, and not a cooking class, here is an interesting tidbit, the word Knead is related to the word Lady-- but i don't remember all the detail of the relationship. (this little fact was also in Joy of Cooking!) perhaps some one with a reference library at hand can assist.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
> the word Knead is related to the word Lady
submitted without further comment:
ME lady, lavedi, lafji from OE hlćfdige, from hlaf (bread) + dige (from root of a prehistoric word meaning to knead); akin to OE dćge - maid, kneader of bread
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
thank you tsuwm! I was always the lady of my house, and baked all the bread.
Of course its easy to be a lady in this country, since in america even a char woman can be a cleaning lady!
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
Thnaks for the information.
As I want to bring some flour home with me I just thought I'd check out your advice. First, I buy flour and put it in small plastic bags, so it doesn't explode everywhere. Then I rub some cake flour over my face (to check I have the right one) and then I go through customs. I'm sure it will be fine.
I am a little worried by US Customs. I travelled back though the Canadian border once. There was a big sign telling people not to make any jokes. Then they started askign me lots of questions about fruit - very strange. I had to eat the apple I was carrying before I was allowed in. Are Canadian apples all that bad? Oh well I suppose it only takes one bad apple.
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