#47108
11/08/2001 1:26 PM
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After having lived for 52 years, it is interesting to notice when mispronunciations become acceptable because, according to judgments made by lexicographers, enough of the population is incorrectly pronouncing a word to make the mispronunciation an acceptable part of the language.
One that has changed in acceptability in my lifetime is (at least in American English):
affluent (first pronunciation, AF-floo-ent) has now the additional now acceptable af-FLOO-ent, which still goes against my aural grain.
Another that I predict will change is carbohydrate (first pronunciation, car-bO-HI-drAte) which I know hear
regularly mispronounced as car-bO-HI-drit.
Another that is regularly mispronounced is template (first pronunciation, tem-plit), but mispronounced tem-plAte.
Have any of you observed mispronunciations becoming acceptable in your lifetime? I'd be curious to read here about your observations. (I've read cross-references on this topic in the search section, by the way, but I'm raising this as a separate subject on how the unacceptable in our language have become (or are becoming) acceptable.
Best regards,
WW
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#47109
11/08/2001 2:42 PM
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Not sure what is mispronunciation, but.
As a callow yoot, I remember either being pronounced mostly as eether; the eyether pronunciation was, to me, a little high-falutin. Any more the standard pronunciation seems to be eyether; the people who still pronounce it eether seem to be few and far between.
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#47110
11/08/2001 2:52 PM
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maintenance (MAIN-tenance) into (main-TAIN-ance)
Yuk.
As for nuclear ---well!--- let's not go there again.
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#47111
11/08/2001 3:34 PM
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How about bird for brid? Oh, wait a minute; that was a long time ago so it's probly OK by now.
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#47112
11/08/2001 4:08 PM
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I find that where I am familiar with two pronunciations, neither of which have been deemed incorrect, I tend to switch randomly among them. The two eithers and neithers, and offen vs. often, all come to mind.
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#47113
11/08/2001 4:19 PM
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and while i have no problems saying Duration (dur a tion) during is always juring... alway a j, never a d at the start of that word! and i am not alone-- is there anyone out there who still has a d sound out in front?
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#47114
11/08/2001 4:25 PM
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is there anyone out there who still has a d sound out in front?
I also waffle on any of those "u" words where the Brits add an extra y sound...Tuesday, duty, during, news...Since I've moved to Newfoundland (much closer ties with Britain than mainland Canada), I've picked up saying T-yoosday instead of the American Toosday. Helen's post reminded me that "during" is another one of those. If I add the y, it makes the d into a j (jyuring) but without the y it's still a d (during).
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#47115
11/08/2001 7:20 PM
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But when you listen to the news and television (if ever), don't you hear words that just make you want to blow up because you hear words changing that you've got some affection for?
Candidate. Not that I like politics. I don't. It's my civic duty and nothing more.
But I've heard so many dadburned reporters pronouncing candidAte, candidit that I could just cry.
I know that the word is doomed. We'll eventually lose that perfectly lovely long A, and will be stuck with the more convenient "it" sound.
I also like brid. It's closer to some of the sounds brids make--especially if you roll your tongue a little on the "r"--quite onomatophoeic.
WW
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#47116
11/15/2001 4:41 PM
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during is always juring... is there anyone out there who still has a d sound out in front?
The change of tyu, dyu to chu, ju in British English has gone through three stages. At the beginning of the 20th century good speakers only used it in words like 'picture' (pikcha): the pronunciation piktya or piktyua would have been old-fashioned even then.
The old RP accent had tyu, dyu in all other cases.
The next change was for them to become chu, ju in unstressed syllables, as in fortune and residue. This is how I speak when careful.
The latest change is the same in stressed syllables: tune and dune are now choon and joon. This is, I think, still regarded as a bit sub-standard, and I'd only use them casually (and might tend to resay if I noticed).
However, 'during' being such a common word, it is probably in advance of the change, and I find I always say juring. Only if I was being exceptionally careful would I say dyuring.
Once I caught myself hypercorrecting jury to dyury.
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#47117
11/15/2001 5:33 PM
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Helen, I pronounce it "doo-ring" and I'd have thought most of USn's do. Now I'm perplexed.... Antipodeans, do y'all palatalize the d in during (and the T in Tuesday for that matter)? Nice thread, Wordwind. Right up my proverbial alley!  As Faldage pointed out, 'brid' became 'bird' before any of us were born and I guess we just have to accept changes, as grating as they may be. Having said that, though, I'm with wow: "nucular" sends me screaming down the street.
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#47118
11/15/2001 6:59 PM
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#47119
11/15/2001 11:11 PM
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addict
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Honestly! The things you guys make me think about! Sitting here repeating aloud the various pronunciations of "during" until none sounds right and I can't recall how I say it normally. I think I'm with AnnaS and usually say doo-ring, possibly dyooring - never juring. But from now on, it's certain to catch my ear when someone else says it.
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#47120
11/16/2001 1:06 AM
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Pardon, aren't all words and all pronunciations and all meanings in a state of transition?
Melt.
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#47121
11/16/2001 1:39 AM
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In reply to:
Pardon, aren't all words and all pronunciations and all meanings in a state of transition?
Pardon, aren't all generalizations dangerous?
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#47122
11/16/2001 1:40 AM
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Don't know whether this is widespread in the States - but have noticed on some US television programmes that 'participants' often pronounce 'ask' as 'aks' and 'vulnerable' as 'vunerable'. Is this the norm? Not conscious of presenters/announcers etc. using these pronounciations. Moreover, have never heard the former down under; the latter is creeping in.
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#47123
11/16/2001 2:06 AM
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Have none of my fellow USns noticed that in the US, the long 'u' sound, correctly pronounced like 'yew' with the initial 'y' sound, as in 'during' as discussed, is slowly being displaced by the 'oo' sound? Except among those who are careful of their pronunciation, 'new' and 'knew' are now pronounced 'noo', as in Noo Yawk. This goes for any words with the long 'u' sound, whether they are spelled with 'u' or with 'ew'. Next I would expect to hear a she sheep called an 'oo', but that practically no one uses the word 'ewe' outside of crossword puzzles. So we don't see a big problem with 'during, jury', etc -- they are being pronounced 'dooring', 'joory', etc. It's a trend I hate; I think the 'oo' sound in place of the long 'u' is inelegant, to say the least.
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#47124
11/16/2001 2:29 AM
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#47125
11/16/2001 4:01 AM
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during I've always heard and pronounced during as "derring." Is that an East Coast (US) thing?...of troy?, wow? It seems some repronunciations suddenly spring back into usage from nowhere...like I've noticed lately that a lot of folks are making it a point to crispen the "g" in strength again (which is correct), when the lazier "strenth" suited folks (including me) just fine for decades. Maybe I just have a lazy tongue.  One recent glaring change over the past few years just drives me crazy... forté. All my life, a large part spent in the theatre where this word is commonly used ('that's not my forté', or 'that's my forté'), it has been pronounced for-tay. The, by some unknown linguistic decree, about 4 or 5 years ago everybody in the media started to pronounce it fort. I looked it up and the former is actually an acceptable, though not preferred, pronunciation. But why on earth take a wonderfully poetic, double-syllable word, and suddenly decree it to be pronounced like a hard lump of dead wood? I'll never get used to that, and for-tay it shall always be with me. I want to stick a bar of soap in their mouth whenever I hear someone do that to that word. Fort  !!! Thanks, WW, I've been meaning to post a thread on this for quite some time, but somehow always got distracted but something else whenever I thought of doing it. So thanks for giving me the opportunity to finally post it here.
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#47126
11/16/2001 6:25 AM
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> Antipodeans, do y'all palatalize the d in during (and the T in Tuesday for that matter)?
(1) If I understand palatizing correctly - in Australia we don't. We follow the line that Bean's come across in Newfoundland ie "dyew-ring" and "Tyews-day".
(2) I was mortified to hear George dubyah talking about the reduction of the USA's "nyew-kuh-lar" arsenal yesterday. This is right up there with "arks" for "ask" in my book!!
stales
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#47127
11/16/2001 6:44 AM
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Just thought of another..."chassis"
The original pronunciation I used was "shazz-zee" but I hear others (US'ns especially) using "chass-ee". Is one more correct than the other?
stales
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#47128
11/16/2001 6:49 AM
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I'm on a roll here.....
The one that irks me most is the ever increasing usage of "dee-fence" rather than the original "d'fence".
A big THANKYOU (not) to US basketball for this one.
stales
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#47129
11/16/2001 6:53 AM
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I'd go with sha-see myself.
Bingley
Bingley
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#47130
11/16/2001 7:53 AM
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#47131
11/16/2001 2:04 PM
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A) It's forte not forté and parperly pernounced [fort], although the [forté] pronunciation is popular; see Usage Note at http://www.bartleby.com/61/99/F0269900.html) 2) Time back way back when we were still kulchad enough to say brid instead of bird ascian and acsian were both considered correct. I have always assumed that ascian was pronounced [ah-skee-an] but come to think of it the sc was normally pronounced [sh]. The ME was asken. That may be due to Danish influence. Dunno about no [arks], no matter what you do with the r the a is an æsh in good old-fashion Murcun.
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#47132
11/16/2001 3:37 PM
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Just thought of another..."chassis"
Dear stales: Did you never see a sassy lassy with a classy chassis?
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#47133
11/16/2001 11:50 PM
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About chassis...I only hear chass-ee in my neck of the woods in Virginia...
About during; I only hear derr-ring;
Abt. Tuesday, only Toos-day;
On February, I would like to hear Feb-ru-air-ee, but I usually hear Feb-yu-air-ee;
How about didn't? I hear a swallowed "Di-nt," and rarely, what I prefer, "dih-dint." Maybe that's just me, however...
WordWoudint
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#47134
11/17/2001 11:32 AM
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Oh, good thread, folks. Lucy, delighted to see you back, Sweetie! I have never heard juring for during--how in the world could anyone get to that transition, anyway?? I have also never heard during as derring. Daring is "derring". (By the way, why is derring-do always written that way, and not as daring-do?) Some of the differences in syllable stress are regional in the U.S.--we in the South tend to "firstify" things: DE-fense sounds fine to me, as does IN-surance, though both are also heard here with the accent on the second sylLAble(hi, tsuwm). People from a bit further north and east of here (upstate Ohio, etc.) also have a pronunciation of long o that sounds odd to me--a very quick ee sound, almost: hyome, slyow. Hmm--now that I'm trying to hear it in my head, I'm thinking it's more of an "a" sound, and I can't write it for the life of me. I'll throw in my primary screaming-down-the-street one again: Antartica. Question: does anyone pronounce Wednesday any way other than Wens-day?
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#47135
11/17/2001 1:31 PM
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Well, now : how about suite as in a suite of furniture - tables, chairs and couch (or sofa {there's another one creeping in}) or other things that "belong together" and also meaning a group of people - a retinue.
I learned to pronounce suite as sweet but also have heard it pronounced as suit like a man's suit.
?
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#47136
11/17/2001 3:03 PM
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TEd
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#47137
11/17/2001 3:28 PM
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Question: does anyone pronounce
Wednesday any way other than Wens-day?
I tend to say Woden's Day, just in cast that particular god isn't dead. Curious how we English speakers commemorate a Nordic god on that day, whereas Latin types commemorate Mercury, as in Miercoles in Spanish, Mercredi in French, and Mercoledi in Italian.
As for the aks for ask switch, I've observed this almost entirely among US blacks. I've also heard people use a short a, while others use a long a when saying "ask." Who says which?
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#47138
11/17/2001 3:32 PM
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What heathens!
You've lost the thread, TEd, we're not discussing hens in heat.
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#47139
11/17/2001 3:42 PM
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>I have also never heard during as derring. Daring is "derring".
this is probably just a matter of different pronouncing guides. how would you pronounce 'derr'? I wouldn't think with a long a. I would show daring as /DARE ing/ and during as /DUR ing/ (midwestern flat dur, with no j or y influence)
>By the way, why is derring-do always written that way, and not as daring-do?
interesting question -- it was given to us that way by Spenser and Sir Walter Scott (and glossed by them) as an erroneous pseudo-archaism.
c1374 Chaucer Troylus v. 837 Troylus was neuere vn-to no wight+in no degre secounde, In dorryng don [v. rr. duryng do, dorynge to do] þat longeth to a knyght+His herte ay wiþ þe firste and wiþ þe beste Stod paregal, to dorre don [v. rr. durre to do, dore don] that hym leste. 1430 Lydg. Chron. Troy ii. xvi. (MSS. Digby 232 lf. 56a/2; 230 lf. 81a/1), And parygal, of manhode and of dede, he [Troylus] was to any þat I can of rede, In dorryng [v. rr. doryng(e] do, this noble worþy wyght, Ffor to fulfille þat longeþ to a knyŠt, The secounde Ector+he called was. [edd. 1513, 1555 In derrynge do, this noble worthy wyght.] 1579 Spenser Sheph. Cal. Oct. 65 For ever who in derring doe were dreade, The loftie verse of hem was loved aye. [Gloss., In derring doe, in manhood and chevalrie.] Ibid. Dec. 43, I durst in derring do [mispr. to] compare With shepheards swayne. 1590 I F.Q. ii. iv. 42 Drad for his derring doe and bloody deed. 1596 Ibid. vi. v. 37 A man of mickle name, Renowned much in armes and derring doe. 1820 Scott Ivanhoe xxix, Singular+if there be two who can do a deed of such derring-do. [Note. Derring-do, desperate courage.]
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#47140
11/17/2001 4:10 PM
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And in some novels of Japanese samurai, warriors invited maidens to walk in woods for a demonstration of bushi-do.
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#47141
11/17/2001 4:14 PM
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Wordwind. The mispronunciations seem to tend in favor of attentuation, for instance, "candidit" for "candidate". This may be part of a general trend in favour of attentuated spelling characterized by the droping of unecesary leters. The trend is most pronounced in the U.S.A. whilst the British hold out with stiff upper lip as usual. For instance: "favor" instead of "favour" (which remains in favour in England and with your neighbour to the north, Canada), "Savior" instead of "Saviour", "neighbor" instead of "neighbour". We also see it in words like "crystallize" and "crystalize" which are correct either way. Is this an erosion in values or just an erosion in the alphabet, I wonder? Speaking for myself, I'm not sure. Perhaps the trend toward attenuated spelling is related to the trend towards "Casual Fridays", which became the trend towards "Casual Monday thru Fridays", and has now become the trend towards "Casual 24/7". Trends are always running downhill ... or so it seems to lexicographers and elocutionists, not to mention haute couturalists. I have also spotted the trend amongst horticulturalists.
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#47142
11/17/2001 5:12 PM
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This may be part of a general trend in favour of attentuated spelling characterized by the droping
of unecesary leters.
Wll, thn, lt's jst drp vwls ltgthr! Isn't there precedent, as in ancient Hebrew?
Perhaps this "casualization" of language fits in with the law of thermodynamics that says that everything is headed towards entropy.
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#47143
11/17/2001 6:05 PM
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Jackie: The during that I hear is durring in which the "urr" rhymes with the "urr" in "blurring"--that is if you pronounce "blurr" to rhyme with the "er" in "wander." I never hear here in Virginia "dooring" or "dyooring."
How 'bout the "r" in the second syllable of February? Have you noticed that people in your locality drop that "r"? I am fervently punctilious in enunciating that "r"--but it is a dying dog here in Virginia, which, in the Richmond area, is often pronounced, "Vuh-GIN-yuh," shiver, shiver.
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#47144
11/17/2001 6:20 PM
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the law of thermodynamics says that everything tends towards entrophy
You may have something there, Geoff. Things can get so laid back, they will end up laid out. That would be Chaos ... at least that's my theory.
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#47145
11/17/2001 10:10 PM
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One of my pet peeves in pronunciation is the use of a "schwa" in far too many places where the printed vowel sound could help listeners get the word.
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#47146
11/17/2001 10:25 PM
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wwh: Schwhat? Could you please give some examples. I'm being obtuse here, but, even though I know what a schwa is, I don't understand the particulars of your peeve.
Thanks, from this most humble soul, for any edification,
WW
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#47147
11/17/2001 10:44 PM
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I have a related schwa peeve -- I understand its use in multisyllabic words, but what the heck is the rationale behind using it in monosyllabic words??
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