#42204
09/18/2001 5:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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Good luck if you decide on ground forces, America “There are, in Afghanistan today, more than 10 million mines. They lie in fields, on mountainsides, beside roads, around the big cities, along irrigation ditches. On average, between 20 and 25 Afghan men, women and children are blown up by mines every day…/….Mr Bush's ‘crusade’' looks more than dangerous. We are now being told that the United States is no longer afraid to take casualties. America, the President says, will have to accept losses. He'd better be right.”http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=94638
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#42205
09/18/2001 5:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Here's another that looks equally legit. Looks like it's only for US'ns http://www.moveon.org/justice/
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#42206
09/18/2001 6:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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That's a calm and impressive statement. More than can be said for that fine upright Christian the good reverend Jerry Falwell this week, here introduced by the editor of Vocabula Review: Next to the despicable attack against the United States, perhaps the most hateful, unspeakable act against all of us was the words spoken by Reverend Jerry Falwell:
‘The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen." ‘
Let us all, especially now, speak thoughtfully and write carefully.http://www.vocabula.com/#Sept01sstopHear, hear to that plea for calm sense.
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#42207
09/18/2001 6:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Jackie,
I don't understand (literally) the third paragraph of the petition proper. Gloss, please?
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#42208
09/18/2001 6:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Innocent civilians living within any nation that may be found responsible, in part or in full, for the crimes recently perpetrated against the United States, must not bear any responsibility for the actions of their government, and must therefore be guaranteed safety and immunity from any military or judicial action taken against the state in which they reside.
The phrase "that may be found responsible..." in the first line refers to the nations not the civilians, who may or may not have an active hand in choosing their leadership. The rest of the sentence, the part following "...against the United States" refers to the civilians. Does that clear anything up?
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#42209
09/18/2001 6:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Yes, thank you, Faldage. It begins to. But I wonder if I might beg your further indulgence, I am finding this kind of reading very difficult this week: Would you mind just paraphrasing it for me. I think I would like to sign.
Thanks,
IP
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#42210
09/18/2001 7:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Disclaimer: The following is my take and is not meant to be a definitive analysis of the petition.
Para 1:
Use judicial means before attempting brute force.
Para 2:
Don't equate national governments with terrorists groups existing within national boundaries. Don't blame the govenments without producing convincing evidence of active cooperation.
Para 3:
Don't equate civilians with governments; don't blame or punish civilians for the actions of the governments
Para 4:
No Nukes. No Biological weapons. No Chemical weapons.
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#42211
09/18/2001 9:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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"Innocent civilians living within any nation that may be found responsible, in part or in full, for the crimes recently perpetrated against the United States, must not bear any responsibility for the actions of their government, and must therefore be guaranteed safety and immunity from any military or judicial action taken against the state in which they reside."
So, when the terrorists use innocent civilians as shields, we just turn around and walk away rather than assaulting their barricades. When the military units that actively supported the terrorists attack our forces, driving before them hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians, we either turn tail and run or just surrender gracefully, saying just before our mass executions, "We are SO sorry we bothered you. Please torture us before you hang us, and make sure our genitals are firmly lodged in our throats."
This makes such perfect sense to me. The terrorists used more than 5000 of our innocent civilians as shock absorbers to stop the civilian planes loaded with our civilians which were aimed at our hearts.
Look at our Constitution -- what are the first three words? WE, THE PEOPLE. WE are the government of the United States. WE gave our various state, local, and national leaders all the power they have. Not one government in the world could hold power if its people did not actively or passively permit it. It takes live bodies to run a government. It takes grass roots support.
Look back at the apologists who said in Germany, "We had no idea that evil bastard was killing 6 million Jews." Bullshit. The people of Germany voted Hitler into power. Every person who voted for him knew what his feelings about Jews were.
Yes, I know that the totalitarian regimes in Syria, Libya, North Korea, Afghansitan, Iraq, Iran, even Saudi Arabia hold power basically at the point of a gun. But if enough of the people want the murdering rampages to stop they will stop, even if it means because all of the regime's efforts go into putting down internal strife.
Harsh as it is, we must and we will protect ourselves.
TEd
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#42212
09/18/2001 10:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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I'm not a great signer of petitions, especially ones which say something along the lines of "this petition demands that the tide will not rise and fall tomorrow". Cnuts to that.
So, when the terrorists use innocent civilians as shields, we just turn around and walk away rather than assaulting their barricades. When the military units that actively supported the terrorists attack our forces, driving before them hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians, we either turn tail and run or just surrender gracefully, saying just before our mass executions, "We are SO sorry we bothered you. Please torture us before you hang us, and make sure our genitals are firmly lodged in our throats."
W-e-e-e-l-l, I don't think that American forces will be that nice. From memory, they weren't in Vietnam. In fact, worrying about collateral damage in achieving (or failing to achieve) an objective has never appeared to be a major and high-priority component of American military procedure once the battle has started and the bullets, flamethrowers, iron bombs, chemical agents, napalm, air-fuel cells, shells, shrapnel and claymore mines have started flying. Unless, of course, there are TV cameras around.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42213
09/19/2001 12:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
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I am at a loss to understand why you say American military procedure, when in my opinion, any nation at war will kill innocent people to acheive their aims. I wasn't aware of it being an exclusively US'n thang.
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#42214
09/19/2001 12:53 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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member
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high-priority component of American military procedure once the battle has started and the bullets, flamethrowers, iron bombs, chemical agents, napalm, air-fuel cells, shells, shrapnel and claymore mines have started flying.
My God! You boys make me sick! Sick, I say of hearing you over simplify, over analyze, and over dramatize this mess we're ALL in right now.
I know I'm not exactly the most politically savvy person around, and I'm sure that CapK or mav or TEd or someone will come up with a way of pinning all the blame on ME PERSONALLY because I've bothered to open my mouth right now, but Good Lord!
Yes, each of us Americans fundamentally believe that the right thing to do right now is go drop a whole load of napalm on every innocent Afghan child we can find. [/end sarcasm]
In this time when TEMPERS RUN HIGH through most of the country and much of the world, people are likely to say things that are more than what they mean. That's no reason to take the words of some zealot preacher on the 700 Club and turn them around and spit them back at us as if you think that Jackie or Helen or I AGREE with everything that man said just because we're Americans.
Yes, I feel patriotic right now. I get a little teary when I see a flag at half mast. I also think that it would be a terrible thing to go to war with an unknown enemy before careful consideration. And as much as I disapprove of Bush, I sincerely believe that, despite all the postruing the government's doing right, now he won't 'bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age' without careful consideration, and without justification (evidence that they really know who/what/why about their targets).
I actually had something apropos (and nice) to say, but if I post it someone will find some way to turn it into "America is evil" "America's going to bomb Norway" "Years ago, America tortured babies" so I'm not going to post it.
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#42215
09/19/2001 3:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
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>Sick, I say of hearing you over simplify....
I hear you, xara (it's what i've been nattering about with my 'nothing is simple' epigram). I'm getting very tired too of all the bombastic (forgive me) rhetoric and I want our AWADtalk site back. but I don't know how we get it....
you know, for all of you who think that you're the only ones talking sense, all -- each and every one -- of these viewpoints are now being discussed 24 hours a day here in the US on CNN, talk radio, op ed pages, etc. (now that the horror of those scenes is etched in our mind's eye forever).
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#42216
09/19/2001 3:23 AM
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Posts: 3,409
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#42217
09/19/2001 4:18 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
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A lover's colors, could you see her sprite on virgin memory. If time passes or no, the rift between a week ago and now is limitless. And if the world adopts a phase of ordinary, it is only because you've forgotten it. You'd expect the terror if it weren't for that.
Sometime between viewing the gallery of pictures Nancyk so kindly linked and running in tertiary parallel from the devouring sky yesterday, I began to watch myself become overwhelmed by the terror growing in me. Even to articulate it to myself helped. But it helped more finally to embrace a friend and say it, "I am terrified."
Terrorism has never been a part of my experience before. In some categories of experience, human nature may follow the rule of the inverse cube, and it was always far away. There may be a general, if not mathematically precise, correlation between psychic states and volumetrics. At any rate, terrorism was a newsprint phenomenon. Of the many things ended last week, not least among them is that innocence.
It is important to bear the methods of terror in mind.
In the first place, during the critical phase of the attack-seizing control-hope of survival must be extended. Without it, the cooperation of the victim is less to be counted on. Witness the actions of the passengers of the plane that went down in Pennsylvania.
In the second, terror turns the resources of the opponent against the opponent. Not just its airplanes and buildings, but its people. As impressive the display of the terrorists tactics and drama of his self-destruction, he is intrinsically too weak to destroy his opponent directly. He relies on his opponent to destroy himself.
Because terror is so heavily thematized as a media phenomenon, we are dissociative in encountering it. The experiential terror which terror[ism] engenders is, in the context of its broadcast, something generalized to the population at large. Its personal impact is somewhat vague. But that is because the specific danger we encounter 'in print' is not immanent-whether the actual terror event was physically near to hand or not, it is 'volumentrically' remote.
BUT TO BE EFFECTIVE, TERROR MUST BE HIGHLY PERSONAL. If the terrorist seeks to destroy the culture he does this by aiming for the individual. Witness the passengers being forced to call their loved ones to bid them farewell. Witness any cognizant person in this city.
Because the terrorist is intent producing terror in the individual, it is incumbent on the individual to rise above that terror. If there is a moral imperative, this is it. For one's own sake, for the sake of one's community, one's culture, one's declaration of commonness with humankind. That is, it is imperative for the sake of the good.
All of us living here have been shattered by the attack last week. You wish an end to grieving, but none is in sight. But there are likely many of us who recognize that not only was fortress America breached on the 11th, but so was the old volumentrics of terror. In principle, the attack of September 11 was as near to any one-and, therefore, to any member of the AWAD community, as it was to us.
I recognized, yesterday, in the very moment of my conviction that I would within days be incinerated in a nuclear flash, terror possessing me.
In the case of this particular possession, the terror was grounded on something more than illusion. The situation facing us is perhaps the most dangerous in history.
But it was still terror. And in ceding to it, I cede to my mortal opponent.
I will not yield.
I count no one out of humanity. Not even last week's murderers. For in doing so, I yield to division-And that is what the terrorist wanted. Badly enough to die for.
In exchange, a thing is evaluated by the good for which it is traded. For my destruction, the terrorist was willing to pay his life.
He wants me to fear. But he is really telling me, "see how precious your life is, that I would sacrifice mine to destroy it." That is his gift to me.
Each of us must look into their heart and examine for themselves what the crisis brings there. And if it is destruction, you can tell it first by the way it divides you from friends.
And we are friends.
I pray we disagree. That is the substance of discourse. And that in discourse, we nourish the unity of our friendship.
Kol HaOlam, Kooloh, Gesher Tsar Meod. V'Haichar: lo lefached klal
--All the world is a very narrow bridge, and the main thing is not to fear. Not to fear at all.
Or, as someone else once said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
I love you all. For who you are, and for your humanity.
These are very hard times, and we will live through them and survive.
IP
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#42218
09/19/2001 5:29 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
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because it came through twice.
Bingley
Bingley
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#42219
09/19/2001 5:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
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In reply to:
Next to the despicable attack against the United States, perhaps the most hateful, unspeakable act against all of us was the words spoken by Reverend Jerry Falwell:
Being gay myself, I have absolutely no time for Jerry Falwell, but to give credit where it's due, he has publically admitted that he was wrong to say what he did and apologised:
Last Thursday during an appearance on the 700 Club, in the midst of the shock and mourning of a dark week for America, I made a statement that I should not have made and which I sincerely regret. I apologize that, during a week when everyone appropriately dropped all labels and no one was seen as liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, religious or secular, I singled out for blame certain groups of Americans.
This was insensitive, uncalled for at the time, and unnecessary as part of the commentary on this destruction. The only label any of us needs in such a terrible time of crisis is that of 'American.'
....
In conclusion, I blame no one but the hijackers and terrorists for the barbaric happenings of September 11.
http://www.falwell.com/
Bingley
Bingley
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#42220
09/19/2001 7:25 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>But it was still terror. And in ceding to it, I cede to my mortal opponent.
Yes, I've been thinking a lot about terrorism and its effects. The world is well chosen. The point of terrorism is not only the dreadful act itself, it is the terror that it creates in all who witness it and all who feel that they could be a victim. Anyone who travels or goes to work, anyone who has a family member working in a vulnerable place or has to travel away from home, anyone who has had a child or has been a child ...
Margaret Thatcher in the immediate aftermath of one of the UK-IRA bombs talked about the "oxygen of publicity". As we all know the oxygen itself adds to the explosive. With modern communications we have no hope of throwing a blanket over the fire. The media circus adds fuel to the fire, it is inevitable, it is part of the way we live. We can see a pin drop by satellite, we can feel the suffering of someone starving in a drought in a distant land or made homeless from freak weather conditions in our own continent.
The fight or flight instinct is very strong in us and terror manipulates our behaviour.
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#42221
09/19/2001 10:42 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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I can’t agree there has been much simplification going on in these discussions – I have seen lots of very thoughtful and heartfelt views being shared. There seems a clear consensus that there are a host of almost impossibly difficult issues we are all being made to face by this tragedy. And if we differ in our views (as we are bound to), as IP says, that is the nature of discussion… no-one here is likely to have either a unique view or any monopoly on truth or logic, which is surely why we want to compare and contrast our opinions. All we have to do to preserve our sanity is to agree to differ, where we must, without undue rancour – and if the discussion bores or distresses us, to avoid it completely (with participants conversely expected to not spread it cross-threaded all over the board!)
Perhaps I should articulate one other view: this is not an American discussion board, being addressed to Americans. It is international, both by Anu’s intent and by its participants’ practice. So when I held up Falwell’s words, I was certainly not intending to “spit them back at” anyone, least of all with any assumption about what others might think of this use of the English language we all share – I was saying to a mixed group of friends around the world “here is an abuse I deplore, and I endorse the plea for calm and careful use of language – what do you think?” Whenever making a statement, I intend a question implied, which you can use or lose as you see fit. fwiw, Mr B, I don’t give a tinker’s cuss for his retraction: all the subtext says to me is that “maybe I shouldn’t have said this right now (even tho’ it’s the God-fearing truth!)”
The plea for regaining the tree frog of previous discussions is probably well timed. Like previous occasions, the solution lies in all our hands – I have started a couple of purely word hares running in recent days, and anyone else can do the same.
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#42222
09/19/2001 1:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Bingley>>>
I have absolutely no time for Jerry Falwell, but to give credit where it's due, he has publically admitted that he was wrong to say what he did and apologised
Jerry Falwell should not be given credit. This seems to be a premeditated act of evil itself. To spout out something so hateful so it would reach many more people than what his normal medium would be (he knows the press will give it an ever wider audience), and then he will apologise. Through the years that seem to be his modus operandi. All of us Americans should speak up against this kind of divisiveness and not let him get away with it.
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#42223
09/19/2001 2:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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On account of strategic considerations, I would not normally engage; however, I think it is worth reiterating (I am sure) what those considerations are.
These gentlemen are employing one of the sheister's oldest techniques, the hegemony of grassroots dialogue through outrageous pronouncement. Did I not wish to offend his memory, I would say PT Barnum would be proud to call these noballs his sons. It is worth resoundingly denouncing what has been said, but one should be cautious in giving it traffic.
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#42224
09/19/2001 2:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
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If as you say, wordcrazy, he makes a habit of attacking and then apologising as a calculated ploy to get publicity, then he obviously deserves no credit for it. I haven't followed his career very closely, so I can't say more than that.
Bingley
Bingley
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#42225
09/19/2001 3:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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maverick>>>>
Perhaps I should articulate one other view: this is not an American discussion board, being addressed to Americans. It is international, both by Anu’s intent and by its participants’ practice.
and if I may add, this is not the time to be parochial.
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#42226
09/19/2001 10:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Perhaps Falwell's statements and the fallout from them is the beginning of the second stage of the grieving process - looking around to find people to blame close to hand. I suppose it's possible that a country can react, en masse, as individuals tend to do.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42227
09/19/2001 10:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
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Tsuwm,
True, this is a word site but any site is nothing without the people in it.
Something quite traumatizing happened last week. People needed to discuss it and this is the place we chose - why, because we have become friends and there is great comfort among friends.
I'm sorry if you are angered by this tsuwm and I really wish you would see the underlying factor behind all these posts. People need to talk it out.
True, this is not a chat room but where is it written that the boundaries cannot be smudged a little for the well being of several individuals. The eternal question isn’t it…what is more important… “the needs of the few over the needs of the many OR the needs of the many over the needs of the few.” (Personal opinion…I think there is no real answer and that it depends on the situation.)
The threads have mostly managed to stay in the I&A section so as not to trouble anyone wanting to avoid the subject and if you notice, the volume in the other sections has started to get back to normal.
"This too shall pass." Wise words indeed.
Xara sweetie. I know that these times are trying but I ask you one favour (yes even though I have no right to). Please look back over the year you have been here. You’ll see that Maverick, CapK, MaxQ and the rest of the guys are really great people and not prone to racism, elitism, religionistic or nationalistic bashing. They are great guys.
It is so easy, and understandable, to misinterpret a tongue-in-cheek post or comment when in a state of tension. And isn’t everybody in a state of tension these days. People are trying to come to terms with what happen and what is about to happen and many are afraid. There is no universal truth Xara but there is one truth you can set your hat on…the guys here are good people. If you feel slighted send them a note. I am sure they will clear it up and you will find it was a misunderstanding.
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#42228
09/19/2001 11:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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OH MY GOD.... someone's gonna bomb Norway? nooooooooo....... [hands flat on cheeks mouth open e].
It must be possible for Anu to create one Major category called Politics and Religion. The desire seems to be there, the content is already here, and I believe it would be an appropriate symbol in the light that the world will never be the same and the specificity of the words require their own spot.
It is, assuredly, a step outside of the box of words that was intended here... but I'm sure that this box of words requires a bit of growth to include whole sentences... some of the oldest formations and ideas that drive and steer any and all word usage (even being apolitical and areligious ones... in theory).
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#42229
09/20/2001 1:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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tsuwm>>>>
"......of these viewpoints are now being discussed 24 hours a day here in the US on CNN, talk radio, op ed pages, etc."
First of all, I prefer this forum because there are no commercials here.
Second of all, I like to hear from "ordinary" human beings whose only agenda is to share what they have seen in their corner of the world, in the hope that other people can take it and add to their collection of information from where they can glean the truth. The more learned ones can shine their light on it and where there is a flaw maybe clarify it for some of us. This is happening here and it can only be beneficial
Third of all, I trust the people here.
I feel lucky to have this refuge.
belMarduk>>>>>
Something quite traumatizing happened last week. People needed to discuss it and this is the place we chose - why, because we have become friends and there is great comfort among friends.
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#42230
09/20/2001 2:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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Posts: 197 |
i apologize for my comments yesterday. i found something that seemed appropriate which i wanted to share, but by the time i'd gotten through just a couple of threads here all i had read was how american foreign policy is crummy, and how that there are idiots who go on television and say idiotic things and make "us" all look bad. it just made me mad. i certainly wasn't in the mood anymore to share my little quote. i know that this isn't an american board. the reason i felt the need to defend myself as an american is because everything i'd read seemed to shed poor light on "us." unfortunately it seems that whenever i say anything around you guys it comes out wrong. i know you guys are all good people. i didn't _mean_ to say anything to the contrary. i shouldn't have said anything at all... my apologies regarding my statement that i didn't think that we'd end up in a military conflict without proper justification, i seem to be wrong, as the planes have already been deployed... 
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#42231
09/20/2001 5:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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i found something that seemed appropriate which i wanted to share, but by the time i'd gotten through just a couple of threads here all i had read was how american foreign policy is crummy
Xara, what I think those of us from outside the US, plus a few of us who live in the US, were trying to point out is that American foreign policy is essentially selfish - as is the foreign policy of any country - and that some of the decisions made in regard to it have not been, and were not intended to be, benign. Again, as with all countries, some US foreign policy is good and some is very, very bad. And I was also trying to point out that policy is one thing, the carrying out of that policy by the American armed forces is another, entirely. War is, after all, the extension of diplomacy by other means.
The major issue in this thread has been, at least from my point of view, trying to make you USn guys see why not everyone loves you and how something like the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon can happen. Those of us in the West (under US hegemony!) accept that not all US foreign policy decisions are going to be altruistic. How could they be? As an example, you may or may not remember that New Zealand is theoretically still out in the diplo-military cold because of its "no nuclear ships" policy. I think Zild accepts this as being a US decision which is completely understandable in the context of American foreign policy. We certainly didn't take it to heart and start burning American flags in the streets. Friends can disagree with each other.
Personally, I was shocked and angered by the attacks last week, as were most of us I would imagine. But surprised? No, not really.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#42232
09/20/2001 5:21 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Can we all agree on at least this much:
1) Although there are no excuses for last week's atrocities there are reasons for it, which may be worth exploring to prevent a repetition.
2) As a superpower the USA has acted more benignantly than certain other countries would have.
3) The USA is not made up of saints and has not always behaved perfectly in an imperfect world.
4) Every country has its unrepresentative crackpots who get far more than their fair share of media attention.
OK take it from there and please try to maintain a certain degree of civility. When emotions are running high and tempers are getting frayed is surely the time when civility is most important. If a bunch of linguaphiles can't disagree in a civil manner what hope is there for the rest of the world?
Bingley
Bingley
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#42233
09/20/2001 9:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>As a superpower the USA has acted ...
... and as former superpowers, many of us in Europe (Britain, Spain, Holland, Portugal, Germany ...) have spent years thinking about (and protesting about, sometimes) the sins of our fathers, mothers, grandparents, great-great grandparents ..... I suppose that at the time we were building "our" empires we were able to do it away from the arc lights of media attention. A small note in The Times about shipping a new consignment of slaves or whatever would have hardly made the ten o'clock news of the day. Some of our actions will fail to stand up to the standards of the future.
Whatever the USA has done in terms of foreign policy, the rest of us in the West have either a) helped or b) done very little to stop. By examining the current situation we are applying our own standards of political introspection, rather than simply accepting the initial pulp (inevitably) put out by the media. My own experience is that people of my age (too young for Vietnam) in the USA, have in the past, tended to go along with the political status quo, especially in world affairs, less than those people that I know in Europe. Maybe it is just that the rest of the world seems further away. Maybe it is a reaction to the huge internal discussion during the latter stages of the Vietnam war. Maybe it is just that political discussion is frowned on in polite circles. I don’t know the answer.
The grieving process is traumatic and even the thought of access to weapons including weapons of mass destruction by any untested world leader (without even thinking about the "other side", whoever they are) is a great way to lose a few days sleep. I think that in any ordinary situation we would have felt that it was appropriate to give a little space for the victims before heading off into analysis. It was the very real impact on all our lives that made some of us feel that we could not be complicit in any action taken based on some of the initial reactions to this sad affair. As tsuwm says, the same kinds of discussions are everywhere now. That is good, it is appropriate that the media should reflect the whole range of opinion, if we don't express ours, how could they know? I had a quick look through other boards (have a look at Google's own current affairs discussion) to see that the same thing was going on, with a little less civility, especially as people were talking to strangers, we are talking to people with whom we share at least some common ground.
We seem to be heading off in the direction of the other sections of the board now, I just hope that we don’t have any great need to come back here. This morning British Airways, following the lead set by other airlines, especially in the USA, announced 7,000 redundancies. I don’t expect that other countries are immune from the economic impact of this terrible affair.
I don’t apologise for the discussion on a few threads of the board. They are pretty clearly labelled and people can choose not to read them. If you remember, it all started with our very real concern for those board members who were in Manhattan and at the time. We are all grateful for their safety and empathise with the experience they have had in the last week.
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#42234
09/20/2001 3:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
If a bunch of linguaphiles can't disagree in a civil manner what hope is there for the rest of the world?Indeed, Bingley. Jo, you made some excellent points, too. I have been nothing but impressed with how everyone, and I mean everyone, has posted with such consideration and courtesy toward each other. Emotions everywhere are higher over this than probably about 'most anything, and yet--the anger, when it appeared, was directed at ideas, not people, and apologies were offered before being asked for. Kudos--you all are great. J. Love (thanks, mav!  )
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#42235
09/26/2001 3:48 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
were any of the urls on this thread related to the virus"Vote for Peace"?
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