Hi, Wordsmithies! I am so excited to be a part of this little corner of life. This is my first post, so am all aquiver! My question is as follows. Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "Grapes of Wrath"? Thanks! I have to try one of these faces now...
Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "Grapes of Wrath"?
The Battle Hymn of The Republic, Steinbeck, and the 14th chapter of Revelation. Past that, I dunno. However, there are lots of car wrecks out here in the wine country of Oregon, soooo.....
Marigold The color is intentional. Welcome, from one "quite new" also. You show a lot of promise. I am at work right now, not goofing off (?) but accidentally(?) came early so has time for this greeting. I will await answers to your query. I know you will get satisfaction.
Hi Geoff! Long time no see! With your clue as to Revelations 14, I looked it up.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Hi! It was rather timely....I had just registered for AWAD so that I could peruse the bulletin board, when a co-worker asked me that question. Since I didn't know the answer, I told him I knew the perfect place to ask! Thanks for the answers! I knew I could count on you-all!
Welcome Marigold, and do put your inquisitive co-worker onto us, too ...we have plenty of room for people like you and your chum i.e. people with inquiring minds
What an interesting question. Thank you, Marigold.
I'm unclear what the metaphor "grapes of wrath" means, in the Battle Hymn line, "the Lord/He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored." Are grapes stored in a "vintage" and are they "trampled" there?
The bible doesn't seem to use the phrase "grapes of wrath". WWH noted a bible metaphor that makes much more sense (winepress of the wrath of God), were divine wrath is the active force (winepress), not passive (trampled grapes).
Could "grapes of wrath" be a mixed metaphor that Howe originated when she wrote her Civil War Hymn? Clues: --- Isaiah 5:1-7 (shortened) "My wellbeloved hath a vineyard and planted it with the choicest vine, and yet it brought forth wild grapes. Judge I pray you betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more, that I have not done in it, that it should bring forth wild grapes? I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will lay it to waste. The vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel, and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry." --- Per a Lincoln biographer: A contemporary battle hymn begins with Isaiah 64:4, and then mirrors the vineyard image: "tread down God's grapes, till blood / Unto your horses' bridles hath out the winepress flowed! The day of vengeance dawns, the day of wrath of God. His soul is marching on." --- Same biographer: while Howe watched soldiers marching by and singing, her companion suggested she write better words to the same marching tune. "When she woke at dawn the next morning lines and stanzas came to her as she lay in bed half dreaming that she was the voice of the nation. She sprang from the bed and wrote in a dim grey twilight, not daring to light the lamp, as it would wake her baby sleeping in its crib."
better words to the same marching tune I wonder what the original lyrics were?
John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave, John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave, John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave, But his truth goes marching on!
Ugh. If memory serves, John Brown was a hero/martyr of the Abolishists -- and a kook of the first order.
I'm not sure if the tune originated there, though. In the movie versions of the Scopes Monkey Trial (Inherit the Wind?), the crowd of torch-carrying rednecks sings the same tune, with different words.
Crafty hell. I had what would have been a good post screwed up by neonatal nuttiness of new system. It kept telling me "we cannot proceed because not all fields are filled in" when there were no unfilled in fields.
> "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored."
I remember as a very young kid asking my father the origin of this phrase. His answer was along these lines:
During the Civil War the North perceived the South as traitors to the Union. They believed that God was on their side in the struggle, hence the literal translation of this phrase is that God is stomping on "a group or collection of persons or things with certain characteristics in common" (one definition of vintage) which held in its bosom a large store of wrath against the United States.
No, but my brother was aboard an Experimental Engineering plane in WWII with a medical officer who was such a five letterman that nobody could tell him a thing, not even that his oxygen apparatus was hooked up wrong. He jumped from 40,000 feet. His parachute never opened.
From context I assume it means a know-it-all, but the expression is new to me. Care to elucidate on meaning, origin, and other points of interest, anyone?
He was a very senior flight surgeon, with a monumental ego. a real p*r*i*c*k. Enough so that half a dozen engineers who knew he was going to die preferred to remain silent.
so that half a dozen engineers who knew he was going to die preferred to remain silent. You're serious, aren't you? This is unimaginable to me, though I know that there were at least rumors of similar things in Vietnam. I am getting the distinct impression that you have experienced the world as a cruel and bitter place--please correct me if I'm wrong. This is vastly different than the world I have been privileged to be in--enough so that I nearly lost my dinner, reading about certain bodily fluids. I would like you to know that there is love---love with no strings or tricks attached--available. I hope that I am not the only one to have offered it to you.
I thought that it was maybe a sarcastic term for someone who letters in a sport five years in a row.
I recall the line from Forrest Gump that went something like "They thought I played so good, they let me stay and play for a fifth year." Speaking of Alabama State, I think.
Lettering refers to receiving a Varsity letter, usually some type of cloth emblem that can be sewn onto a Letterman's jacket. The letters are usually the first letter of the school name and it denotes what sport the letter was given in. In order to get one you have to fulfill certain requirements during the season, like participating in the sport on the Varsity (as opposed to Junior Varsity) team.
...and getting five of them would indicate that you weren't able to graduate in the normative four years (although eligibility rules would usually prevent such participation anyway). thus a five letter man could be construed as being just a few bricks short of a load. -ron
ohmyGosh... unless i'm misunderstanding your line of thinking (gee, that'd be a big surprise), i think you're right! the joke would be funny only to those who don't realize that most of us take 5+ years to complete our "four year" undergraduate programs.
most of us take 5+ years to complete our "four year" undergraduate programs.
Well, more like I always thought that a letter was for something more than just participating; rather participating with a certain degree of outstanditude and could be earned in more than one sport. Someone who excelled in baseball, football and basketball in junior and senior years could easily be a six letter man.
ron's baby brother, ernest obvious
PS
misunderstanding your line of thinking (gee, that'd be a big surprise)
and getting five of them would indicate that you weren't able to graduate in the normative four years
Maybe not. Calling someone a "three letter man" is a high compliment, meaning he is a so good a college athlete as to letter in three separate seasonal sports: a fall sport, a winter sport, and a spring sport.
Is the term five letter man is use? I can't recall it, but am unsure.
participating with a certain degree of outstanditude
On ma'Gawd - outstanditude? Faldage strikes again. Great word. My understanding was that you got a "letter" in each sport in which you played with a Varsty team and that therefore, as said previously, you could easily get six letters in four years by participation in different seasonal sports. How-sum-ever I do believe that the term, as used for the man in question "Six Letter Man" is perjorative in the sense that a six-letter man would be a "bit above you all" perhaps a "know-it-all" and not one to let the opportunity pass to let you know he knows it all ... a real pain in the asterisk.
All this talk of Letter Man gives one a new scope for thought about Dave Letterman -- the late night talk show host. Sometimes "Six Letter Man" is right on the money in describing Dave, other times he can appear quite charming.
Caradea, thanks for your explanation! I think that could be an outside joke, since I didn't realize that taking 5 years to graduate was NOT a sign of poor grades! This has my vote for an outside joke!
I think you answered your own question. I learned MANY years ago that a five letter man was a p*r*i*c*k. So I didn't pay too much attention to this thread after you posted that. I should have!
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