#32092
06/14/2001 1:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87 |
Why are people who write for the media, advertising, etc. unable to master the possessive and correct use of the apostrophe!!!??? Do these poor hacks think they'd better use that apostrophe-s just in case not using it would be a big blooper? Am I the only person in the world driven to distraction by seeing the possessive wrongly applied? Is this a losing battle just like the already lost battle of "there is" when "there are" should be used? 
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#32093
06/14/2001 1:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
You are not alone. I'd bet that most of us here are driven to distraction by the random '''''''s found on public writing everywhere. There is a special place in purgatory for sign writers who cannot write.
Apple's .50/lb
Arghhhhhhh!
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#32094
06/14/2001 2:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,636 |
Amen. Finally getting laconic as the day closes.
consuelo
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#32095
06/14/2001 12:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
I notice that often, people will incorrectly use "there's" for "there is" when the verb should be plural, as in "There's fourteen dogs in my neighborhood." It bugs me, but I guess people do it because it flows off the tongue easier...
Brandon
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#32096
06/14/2001 12:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Brandon is (as are others) bothered by "there is" when the verb should be plural but he guesses people do it because it flows off the tongue easier.
There is that, but it's also not unknown in other languages for the corresponding idiom to be regular and singular, even in languages that have far less regularity in their verb conjugations than do we in English. See the German es gibt as in es gibt vierzehn Hünde in meinen Nachbarschaft or the Spanish hay as in en mi barrio hay catorce perros.
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#32097
06/14/2001 1:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Try saying "there're"! It's a bit of a mouthful (like "rural", which is a word I hate, and the name "Gareth", which my dad has trouble with). I think that's why I use "there's" in speech, although I tend to be much more careful in written stuff. As we probably all do! 
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#32098
06/14/2001 3:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
What I hate is when people use quotation marks for emphasis. For example, there was a sign at a 7-11 store that read:
There will be a $15 charge for "each" returned checks!
Never mind the grammar, it was the quotation marks that raised my hackles. Why can't people underline anymore?
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#32099
06/14/2001 4:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Alex W > it was the quotation marks that raised my hackles
New headline writers and reporters are always cautioned about the use of quotes. The example given as to how quotes change a meaning follows:
Bishop and wife stayed overnight
Bishop and "wife" stayed overnight
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#32100
06/14/2001 5:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
"mea culpa","mea culpa" -- but not mea maxima culpa-- i know i am guitly of this-- and so i often edit out half the the useless quotes that have lodged them selves into a post or document... and try an go back to bold or bold and italic or color-- even thought the tags are a pain in the neck..
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#32101
06/14/2001 5:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87 |
Try saying "there're"! It's a bit of a mouthfulFunny, I just run the two r's together and have no problem. To me, the lack of agreement between subject and verb is far more jarring than the flow of saying "there's" verus "there're." Faldage - vorsicht mein lieber, sonst geht's bald mit'em Deutsch bei mir auch noch los! 
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#32102
06/14/2001 5:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The subject is there.
Singular or plural?
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#32103
06/15/2001 2:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
I just run the two r's together and have no problem. To me, the lack of agreement between subject and verb is far more jarring than the flow of saying "there's" verus "there're."
I quite agree, nikeblack -"therur" rolls off the tongue perfectly as well as "there's."
As to finding Gareth difficult - that's probably because it is a Celtic name introduced into a largely Saxon environment, and the two never did mix all that well, in any situation. Try saying "Gareth Thistlethwaite" - without pausing for a drink in the middle!
Do any Welsh words that start with a "th" sound? If not (as I believe) then that sort of problem wouldn't occur.
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#32104
06/15/2001 3:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Actually, I think my Dad's problem with Gareth stems from his tendency to roll all his R's, Italian-style (since that's what he is). It comes out as Garrrrruth, if he makes it all the way to the th without laughing. But I don't think my tongue likes that name much either. But rural? Am I the only person who just can't stand to say that word? It comes out "rrl". No audible vowels!  Just like there're = therr.
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#32105
06/15/2001 3:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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Posts: 544 |
I too get stuck on "rural," with the little hooks on the top of the r's getting all tangled up in the middle of the a, and it always sounds odd to my ear. Happily, I'm a city boy.
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#32106
06/16/2001 1:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87 |
Yup. There are some English, Anglo-Saxon?, words that defy the tongue. I new at least one Iranian who could not say world to save his life. The rld combination was too much and, indeed, upon examination of tongue posiiton, I must agree.
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#32107
06/16/2001 2:15 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,636 |
A quote, I have a quote! "...let us reach into the inkwell jewel box and withdraw two sets of exquisite superscript signs--"for the right ear," for the left--and hang them from the lobes on either side of the word...(they) possess an understated, overlooked beauty that transcends the merely chic. (Do they not resemble, say, the windblown teardrops of fairy folk, commas on a trampoline, tadpoles with stomach cramps, or human fetuses in the first days following conception?)"--Tom Robbins, from his latest novel
I would normally type in the name of the novel if I had a clue how to underline book titles on this poor, handicapped half-a-computer I was given by my sister, and I just sent my flak jacket to the cleaners! (laugh) I don't have a clue how to use the cute little smiley faces either. So, if you are interested and can take it straight without the underline, let me know. Better yet, post it if you know it!:>
consuelo
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#32108
06/16/2001 2:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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There are certain dialects in the Southern United States (Appalachia?) where, for a possessive indicative they say "that's your'n" or 'that's their'n" .
rural
And can you imagine the difficulty of an Asian-language-speaking English student with this?... lular?
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#32109
06/16/2001 8:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
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When I was teaching English in Singapore about 15 years ago, I had a lot of Japanese students. By a cruel twist of fate, most of them lived in River Valley Road. Bingley
Bingley
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#32110
06/16/2001 1:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<What I hate is when people use quotation marks for emphasis. For example, there was a sign at a 7-11 store that read: There will be a $15 charge for "each" returned checks!>>
Thanks for that, Alex Williams. For years I've wondered what the hell or on Earth quotation marks would be doing sighting every "each" or "any". You've taken one load from my shoulders and replaced it with another. But you may still return all your checks to me.
A summer frolic to everyone, and a mid-summer dream.
IP
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#32111
06/16/2001 2:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
consuelo, I bet my computer is older than yours! For tips, click on http://markup in your posts when you go to post, or better yet, go to Max's wonderful website, which will answer all your questions and then some: http://maxq.airscapenet.com (but please don't abuse the emoticons! *whistling*) .
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#32112
06/16/2001 2:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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This article from NYTimes.com Boston Journal:
Minder of Misplaced Apostrophes Scolds a Town
By SARAH LYALL
BOSTON, England — They jump out everywhere at John Richards, silent testaments to the declining standards of our time.
Just four blocks from his house, for instance, is the Print Xpress copy shop, with its sign offering to print "menu's."
That's just the beginning, Mr. Richards said recently, his Brezhnevian eyebrows beetling indignantly as he conducted an annotated tour of the neighborhood, on the outskirts of this busy Lincolnshire town.......... For the whole article click : http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/16/world/16ENGL.html?ex=993700761&ei=1&en=842bb314a6df5fb0Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company Later Edit : I went back and clicked on the url ... it works OK! Now that you've read it ... comments?
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#32113
06/17/2001 2:25 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
Annastrophic, its not that its so old, it's CRIPPLED. It has no CDROM driver, no sound card, I have no printer, I'm sure there must be other things I'm not aware of, but I'm just going to drive it until it crashes and then buy a new one! My luck it will probably never crash, or else it will crash right before I really need it! Kind of like cars, huh. This one's a 1971 Gremlin.
consuelo
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#32114
06/17/2001 2:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Such attention to 'linguistic' detail is not rare, as this board has proven. We all make up our own use patterns (as we should IMHO) and we all make mistakes (as we will again), but the obvious ones, when respectfully (I prefer humorously) pointed out to the 'maker', will most often (in my limited experience) be corrected at "no charge". However, I'm not inclined (or "rich" enough  ) to go up to everyone I hear sing out of tune and point out that fact to them! (ps - IP, it's good to see you "back") (pps - In case anybody has missed my "intent", the quotes denote an "open" interpretability of the word within  ) EDIT - This repair brought to you by WO'N... oh... here's your change...
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#32115
06/17/2001 3:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2001
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For some odd reason, I always stumble on the word peculiar.
-dave
aim sn - 'a bored youth'
-dave
aim sn - 'a bored youth'
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#32116
06/17/2001 10:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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but the obvious ones, when repectfully (I prefer humorously) pointed out to the 'maker' ...sorry, musick...I couldn't resist.
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#32117
06/18/2001 11:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
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addict
Joined: Feb 2001
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Do any Welsh words that start with a "th" sound? If not (as I believe)
Welsh has "Th" as a separate consonant, pronounced as "th" in "think.
It also has "Dd" pronounced as "th" in "them"
Welsh has several words starting with "Th" borrowed from English, e.g. thermomedr. It also (I had to look this up) has "thus" meaning frankincense!
It doesn't seem to have many starting with "Dd" though. I will look at home tonight.
Rod
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#32118
06/18/2001 4:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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WO'N ...but it'll cost you two more 's and a for me to go in and "fix" it.
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#32119
06/18/2001 5:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428
addict
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addict
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I was just about to comment that I disagreed with Mr. Richards' objection to the word "CD's," noting that I thought that was the proper plural form for abbreviations (like 1960's or A's) when I noticed that the pop-up ad that appeared when I opened the link to the NYT was advertising "CDs, DVDs and CD-ROMs." Now I don't assume some blathering copy on the Internet to be the arbiter, but what do you all think about "CD's"?
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#32120
06/18/2001 5:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#32121
06/18/2001 5:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
but what do you all think about "CD's"?
This is a bit prescriptive, so look away now. "CD's" should be used in two contexts, possessive and contractive:
possessive: The CD's new songs are X and Y.
contractive: The CD's pretty new. (CD is)
Plural of CD should be CDs. We don't put apostrophes on the plural for cat or dog. Why should CD get the hallowed risen comma?
Brandon
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#32122
06/18/2001 9:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yu da man, Brandon
consuelo
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#32123
06/19/2001 11:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,156 |
In the style guide at the back of the Oxford Canadian Dictionary, it gives the non-apostrophe pluralization rule for abbreviations. I think we'd seen it with the apostrophe so often that we were used to it (at least I was) and now the non-apostrophe version looks a little awkward. I've been using it recently for my papers for school and it's kind of growing on me.
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#32124
06/19/2001 12:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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So long ago that I have forgotten the details, I read that an early form of the possessive was : " the man his arm...."
I am disappointed that none of our philologists has discussed this. So the apostrophe just replaces the "his".
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#32125
06/19/2001 12:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dr. Bill notes: that an early form of the possessive was : " the man his arm...." and is disappointed that none of our philologists has discussed this.
Probly® because, like so many of my dimly remembered bits of wisdom, it is an old wive's tale. I am sure tsuwm or NicholasW or another of our well-versed philologists could document this.
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#32126
06/19/2001 2:14 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Faldage: It was in a scholarly tome in Widener Library that I read it. No old wives tailing (sic) to it.
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#32127
06/19/2001 3:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
an early form of the possessive was : " the man his arm...."
I have read some notes scattered about that point towards the "man his arm" theory behind the adoption of the apostrophe, but the more accepted (correct me, others) theory is that the genetive singular form most often used ended in -es (reached back into the days when the language had cases). In the Middle English inflectional system, the accusative and dative cases were replaced with prepositions, but the genetive did the trick using an apostrophe. The unstressed e dropped out of pronunciation, and writers placed an apostrophe to indicate the dropped letter (some sources debate whether the apostrophe denotes an omission).
Brandon
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#32128
06/19/2001 3:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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Faldage discounts an etymology thus: it is an old wive's tale
Is it the tale of one wife or of some wives? Has the possessive got you too? Are you possessed?
(Or perhaps it's the dreaded wive, a mythical beast of central Africa, known for its maffling call.)
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#32129
06/19/2001 3:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Hyla astutely notices old wive's tale
The genitive singular of the OE wif, woman was wifes. An f between two vowels was voiced. This bit of grammar has come down to us in the phrase old wive's tale.
That's *my story and I'm sticking to *it.
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#32130
06/19/2001 4:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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Ya know, I stared at it and stared at it and couldn't figure out how I'd change it to make it look "right."
Now I know why.
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#32131
06/19/2001 7:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What I've got here is David Crystal's story on the apostrophe: nowhere in his Encyclopedia of the English Language does he mention the hypothesis Dr Bill brought up; instead, he says it was introduced by 16th century printers simply as a way to indicate a missing letter. By the 18th century, as Brandon said, it became a marker for the possessive, first denoting the genitive singular, then the plural. Crystal addresses the apostrophe in several different places in his wondrous work. I could quote chapters and verses, but it's got an index
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