In the Arab headgear thread– ROD had brought up something in jest– the I think could be explored– Just what is the preferred term for those members of the human race that have the primary reproductive responsibility?
Some years ago, James Stephen's (author) in his book of short story's "Here are Ladies" (made into an off Broadway show in the 1970's) pointed out what a wonderful democracy the US was– the in America even a char woman was a cleaning lady.
But now days, I think most of us prefer woman to lady. (And in some ways being defined as "Lady like" is not the same level of a of compliment is once was.)
Girls is almost a taboo word to use with a female over the age of 15– and young lady is verboten for women over 21. Both tend to sound condescending. But among ourselves– we sometimes have a Girl's night out
So in America– we have gone round– and instead of all being ladies– we have all become women.
Or is this just a NY feminist view? From one half– I'd like to learn the terms you like use to describe/define you– and from the other half– what words do you use– or have learned not to use? And what about signage? Ladies rooms? Or woman's room?
Lady's clothing? Or women's clothing In US- these two term are used to define sizes with women clothing being a large size range– but there are stores that advertize Women's clothing and mean all sizes– and include in their selection are dressy suits and or party dresses.
At one of the buildings in Cornell University several many years ago some event of sufficient draw for many non-U people to attend prompted some ad hoc signs to be posted to facilitate the finding of the rest rooms. One of the signs read Ladies' Room with an arrow to point towards the location. Someone, in the spirit of the feminist classic, had crossed out the Ladies' and written in Women's. Someone else, skipping a step, had crossed out Women's and written in Woperdaughter's.
Interesting stuff, this! I've long associated woman with the OE wif-man, or wife-man, so there seems to be an ancient suggestion of chattel therein. Call me a chauvinist swine if you will, but I've long considered man to be non-gender-specific in certain contexts.
As for girl, did it not originally mean any young person?
Still bearing the scars from the wet cous-cous (and how on earth did I explain that away to my wife) I am going to keep my mouth shut for a while! But I have asked my daughter the question to get a UK female mid 20s (GSH, seeks relationship..) perspective on the subject.
On the specific question of signage, in the UK the majority of toilets for females that are word signed have "Ladies" but "Women" is common also. Apart from the jokey or themed signs, like the ones in the Veterans club that says "No Man's Land".
Michigan usage, at least in business and professional circles, indicates that "woman" is preferred, if not "person." There are "chairpersons" of committees, often shortened to "chair." "Lady" is rarely used, except in the introductory phrase, "ladies and gentlemen."
Preferences as to honorifics tend to vary with the professional and social setting; it seems to me that most lawyers, accountants and business managers use "Ms," but that "Mrs" and "Miss" are used by school teachers.
I am happy to report that the use of "Sir" and "Ma'am" have regained acceptance in my circles in recent years. It might be in part because I kept addressing people that way, and they got used to it...
Geoff protests: Call me a chauvinist swine if you will, but I've long considered man to be non-gender-specific in certain contexts.
The word man is, at root, an Old English word meaning human being. The commonly used words for males and females were, respectively, wer and wif. While it was possible to refer to wæpmen and wifmen, I have, in my very limited reading, seen only wæpcynd and wifcynd.
The idea that to be a man you have to be male is the sexist notion. Referring to females as men is not.
And what about signage? Ladies rooms? Or woman's room?
Most places here actually use the woman symbol - you know, that one with a skirt that looks like a cookie cutter. Otherwise, I usually see "Ladies". But I never really paid attention. I think in general in Canada we use non-verbal signs, possibly for the benefit of those who can't read. Especially on the highway. But that's off topic.
from my daughter, 25 yr old working and living in London:
Ladies - formal context eg in conjunction with gentlemen, or in social events. If used in work context tends to be condescending. Think Barry White. Or Alan B'stard. Women - the generic. Used by men and women, no issues. Just don't overuse it - "people" is to be preferred. Girls - informal context eg "get the girls to come out for a curry too". Don't use in work unless the girls in your team are using it themselves. Can be used between men in that context. Females - never ever. Think "creatures" or "the male of the species" as the correct context. Gals - even more informal and joking, generally used by the old git of the office when joking around. Birds - the drinking man's reference to the ladies... Boids - the drunk man's reference to the ladies.. Bitches - ridiculous reference, only to be used in prison situations Witches - me, nicola and naomi...
(Must-remember-to-stop-using-Gals emoticon)
That gels with my understanding,
Which gender specific words for professions are still acceptable? Usher has been used for both sexes (no more Usherette) for a while now, as has conductor, not that we have them on buses any more. But waiter/waitress, actor/actress and so on? Some of these have generalised in the plural but not yet (in my experience) to the singular. I don't in general like words of the "waitperson" construction. I accept chairperson, but words such as chairman don't signify the male sex to me anyway.
Robyn Lakoff (and others) have pointed out that titles like chairperson are markèd - the semiosis here being one of negation. We're pointedly NOT saying chairMAN, so we are referring to the woman in the (biggest) chair. "Chair," in and of itself, is the unmarked varietal.
One wonders, however, whether or how rapidly other sex-marked words will wither and die. What kind of list of -woman or -man words can we generate? These would be words that have no _logical_ gender; merely an "associative" one.
In reference to Rod's immediately previous post - perhaps in this wired world of ours, alternatives like "waitron" aren't far off?
Here's a good link from CBC (Canada's national public broadcaster and WAY better than PBS ) about their use of "fisher" instead of "fisherman" in their stories. There are other good word discussions on that site if anyone is interested.
Around here, the waiter/waitress dichotomy often gives way to "server." Most actresses I know refer to themselves as actors. Administratrix and executrix are no longer used.
common sense often goes out the window with this stuff and it's difficult to know where to draw the line (as with fisherman in the CBC link). there is no Very Good Reason for having a special word for a female waiter or aviator or executor. on the other hand, why should I have to specify the gender of actor I need for my leading lady when the perfectly serviceable word actress is at hand? "And the Oscar® for Best Actor in a Woman's Role goes to..."
In one NH town, Louisa Woodman, a professional woman and staunch believer in women's rights, was the first woman elected chairman of the Planning Board. The Vice-Chair of the Board asked if she wanted to be addressed as Chairman or Chairperson. She replied : "Chairman is fine, thank you, I have no intention of changing my name to Woodperson."
Now, personally, I have no objection to "Ladies" in situations where, for example, a Maitre d' is gesturing a group of women to a table. Ladies and Gentlemen is fine as a general address to a group. I think a lot of it has to do with age. If a man in his 70s or over uses girls or ladies, it doesn't seem as offensive as when a younger man treats women as "girls" ... A friend and I were attending a formal dinner for a professional organization and one man at the table asked us : "What do you girls do?" (Good thing I didn't have a pie to hand.) Overall, some things like "cleaning lady" are so ingrained that it will take awhile - and an imaginative mind - to think of a phrase to replace it, others like "actor" for both male and female will be changed because those in the profession will keep using the term they prefer until it is part of the language.
Bill, that is because you are an old fashioned gentleman-- who would insist on calling us all ladies-- no matter what the occation! (I like mine like whiskey-- strong and neat!)
Have been over all postings to date and find them invariably interesting. Thank God, we don't have zealots here who insist on ridiculous neologisms to avoid perfectly good terms.
A couple of observations. Now that in many churches there are female clergy, it's interesting that the word 'deaconess' which was in use up to the 70s has been quietly deep-sixed; a deacon can now be of either gender and the same word is used for both. Also, the word 'priestess' is never under any circumstances used; a priest, or a bishop for that matter, is also of either gender.
Lawyers, hereabouts at least, are often addressed in writing as 'John Doe, Esq.' Of course, we know that an esquire originally was male, but you now have 'Jane Doe Esq.' I suppose that if the term for an adolescent boy in training as a knight's assistant could be used for a corporate tax lawyer, or one of the unsavory shysters who hang around the courthouse, or the ambulance chasers who prey on the parents of birth-damaged children, it could be used for a woman (not knocking the ladies here).
To look at the other sex, there is a good deal of use of the word 'boy/boys' which no one minds, as in, "See what the boys in the back room will have." In any group consisting entirely of men, they will frequently refer to themselves or each other as 'boys' or 'the boys'.
Lastly, in regard to terms used in the clothing industry, I have always wondered what, exactly, is meant by the term 'misses' sizes/clothing? I don't believe there is an equivalent in men's/boys clothes.
there is, of course, a bureau of standards for clothing sizes-- but roughly-- Juniors-- odd numbers sizes-1 to 15 for younger women-- narrower in the waist and bust, and slightly shorter (Neck to waist, waist to hem) they tend to be for younger women. Misses even numbered sizes 2 to 18 or so. slightly larger in the waist than juniors-- actually the standard from which other sizes are based on. (difference between juriors and misses- is like the difference between regular and "trim fit" in mens clothing) Petites-- can be any size-- just cut shorter-- neck to waist, waist to hem, and sleeve. (since women's clothes don't always come in Long, Reg and Short--Tall women, and very short have the worst of it..) Worst case is a thin women about 5 foot tall, with large breasts-- she might need a juniors size 3 or 5 skirt--but a Misses 8 for a jacket-- to fit her bust--only now the shoulders, and sleeves would be way to big, and even the back of the jacket wouldn't fit right!
"half sizes" 12½ to 22½-- fuller-- especially in waist and bust.(mens "full cut") Womens 16 (or 18) to 26.. large sizes.. Think of Roseanne-- or Cathrine Manheim.
Size 12 is the standard-- everything is cut larger or smaller based on its relationship to size 12. -- it used to be size 10-- but as america keeps getting larger.. they moved the standard up a notch..
I didn't know that "standard" religions ever had any need for the term, at least in earlier days. But don't some "non-standard" religions have priestesses? Wicca, possibly voodoo, even Druids?
Lastly, in regard to terms used in the clothing industry, I have always wondered what, exactly, is meant by the term 'misses' sizes/clothing? I don't believe there is an equivalent in men's/boys clothes.
According to the daughter of one of my colleagues, who works for a retailer on the marketing side, the mid sizes for girls in their tweens are in theory intended to compensate for the physical shape changes that the distaff sex goes through during adolescence. But the cynical young thing also informed me that it is being leveraged furiously by all the name brand retailers (and knock-off shops, no doubt) to aid them targeting that same market by getting at the parents through those fashion-conscious misses ....
The CBC url that Bean posted raised a thought about epicene pronouns. [never-thought-i'd-use-the-word-of-the-day-that-fast-in-a-post-I-was-going-to-make-anyway emoticon]
To quote Christopher Robin (or at least A.A. Milne) "If the English language had been properly organized . . . then there would be a word which meant both 'he' and 'she', and I could write, 'If John or Mary comes heesh will want to play tennis,' which would save a lot of trouble."
It is often possible to reconstruct a sentence to use general plurals or avoid pronouns, but I am interested in the board's opinion for the occasions when gender neutral pronouns are necessary. Do you prefer "he or she" "he/she" "his/hers" or do you (like me) [putting his cards on the table e] prefer using "their" "they" as gender neutral singular pronouns?
and the flummery URL that Belligerent Youth posted yesterday provided (but I can't find it now) an odd press line something on the lines of "This competition category is only open to women pretending to be drag queen artistes!" as if we weren't all confused enough already!
The above was going to be my post but in trying to find the original line I found an even more relevant item. Here is the url. http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/sierra/flum/01.01.htm Just search for "Gender Identity" just over half way down.
doean't B96 call herself a goddess, not just a mere god?
yup, geoff. 'god' just seemed a bit....egocentric.
as for the girls/women/ladies thing, i guess i don't really understand what all the fuss is about. after all, that which we call a rose...
i *do* vividly remember being in a dressing room a few years ago, i was probably 25 or so, and overheard a sales girl who appeared to be maybe 18 or 19 ask another sales girl if she could bring something in to "that LADY in room five". i felt so *old*.
It is often possible to reconstruct a sentence to use general plurals or avoid pronouns, but I am interested in the board's opinion for the occasions when gender neutral pronouns are necessary. Do you prefer "he or she" "he/she" "his/hers" or do you (like me) [putting his cards on the table e] prefer using "their" "they" as gender neutral singular pronouns?
I refuse to use the virgule version or to apply a plural pronoun to a singular noun. I tend to rewrite sentences to avoid those choices, and if presented with an unavoidable use of an indeterminate-sex-singular-pronoun I usually use simply, "he." Occasionally, when the subject of the writing pertains overwhelmingly to women, (such as when referring to rape victims or spousal abuse victims) I use "she."
[quote]I refuse to use the virgule version .. or a plural for singular[/quote I agree and do the same. Of course, it's difficult and frequently you find yourself hemming and hawing a bit when you have to some up with something on the fly.
For an interesting, and mostly successful, example of how to use gender-neutral language, you can study the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible (not the latest edition of the Revised Standard Version, which is a different version altogether). We use this in church for all purposes and for the most part it's a good solution to a problem which many people (not me) want addressed, but there have been times when I'm standing at the lectern gritting my teeth over something I have to read aloud and putting a good face on it.
The use of the third person plural pronoun in a singular context is, of course, marred by the fact that its roots are in the Dreaded Politically Correct notion that women deserve an even break, whilst the corresponding second person usage is from the Acceptable Socially Correct practice of sucking up to our superiors.
>on the other hand, why should I have to specify the gender of actor I need for my leading lady when the perfectly serviceable word actress is at hand? "And the Oscar® for Best Actor in a Woman's Role goes to..."
You could then get Robin Williams from Mrs. Doubtfire or Dustin Hoffman from tootsie as nominees.
>You could then get Robin Williams from Mrs. Doubtfire or Dustin Hoffman from tootsie as nominees.
yes, exactly!
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I also use "he" in almost all third person singular situations, unless the audience would tend to have a preponderance of women. (it's just my guyway 8)
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with my understanding,
Flax-spinning little homebody, huh?
