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Previous Thread Next Thread Print Thread bottom #178351 07/28/2008 2:29 AM Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 gaius novus stranger gaius novus stranger Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 I've been reading Gideon the Cutpurse recently. It's a decently-well-written story about two kids in modern England who accidentally travel back to the mid-18th-Century. (Think The Golden Compass with somewhat less imaginative world building.) The word in question is "bottom." As used by those native to the 18th Century in England, it means something like "courage" or "gumption." From what I can tell, the now-common meaning "derriere" did not come about until nearly the end of the 18th Century. The problem I'm having is that I cannot figure out how the "courage" meaning came about for a word that has its roots strongly in "base," "fundamental," or "ground." (It also seems a bit odd that whoever coined "bottom" as "derriere" clearly thought of the rear-end, and not the feet as the "bottom" of the human. I guess he sat a lot.) Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom gaius novus #178353 07/28/2008 2:45 AM Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,067 Tasmania The Pook old hand The Pook old hand Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,067 Tasmania Comes from ME botme and OE botm, but so far as I can see it has never meant 'courage.' Perhaps it's a corruption (by the author?) of 'bottle' when used in that way? Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom The Pook #178366 07/28/2008 7:29 AM Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 557 Dallas, TX Myridon addict Myridon addict Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 557 Dallas, TX I think the author may be having a laugh... use the Search Inside function of the Amazon link given above... I expect every member of the party to show their bottom on this journey. "Well, I admire your bottom, young sir," said the innkeeper's wife, ignoring Kate's snigger. In which the parson preaches a curious sermon and the party shows their bottom Fancy liking the French... but he had bottom. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom Myridon #178370 07/28/2008 10:49 AM Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Faldage Carpal Tunnel Faldage Carpal Tunnel Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 The B&M OED has a definition with citations from the late 18th to the mid 19th centuries: Physical resources, 'staying power', power of endurance ; said esp. of pugilists, wrestlers, race-horses, etc. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom The Pook #178479 08/02/2008 10:39 PM Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 gaius novus stranger gaius novus stranger Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 @Pook: the author's doing exactly that. It's meant as a joke to us from the 21st Century. I was just hoping that it really was used in the way the 17th Century people used it. It feels cheap as a single entendre. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom gaius novus #178480 08/02/2008 11:50 PM Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Faldage Carpal Tunnel Faldage Carpal Tunnel Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 13,803 Assuming you came up with the 'courage' meaning just from context and you read it with the 'staying power' meaning that the OED offers it makes sense in a 17th century context and gets your 20th century second meaning if you think the author really intended that. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom Faldage #178502 08/04/2008 5:27 PM Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293 Orlando ParkinT enthusiast ParkinT enthusiast Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 293 Orlando  Originally Posted By: Faldage Assuming you came up with the 'courage' meaning just from context and you read it with the 'staying power' meaning that the OED offers it makes sense in a 17th century context and gets your 20th century second meaning if you think the author really intended that. It seems to me that 'staying power' quite aptly describes my derriere !! "I am certain there is too much certainty in the world" -Michael Crichton Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom ParkinT #178516 08/05/2008 5:33 AM Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,154 British Columbia, Canada Zed Pooh-Bah Zed Pooh-Bah Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,154 British Columbia, Canada Think of other descriptions for someone with staying power or power of endurance: solid, of fixed purpose or immovable or unshakable. "Having bottom" referring to a solid foundation or a heavy enough base to prevent tipping over makes sense in this context. Copy Link to Clipboard Share Post on Facebook Share Post on Twitter Re: bottom Zed #178517 08/05/2008 5:42 AM Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,067 Tasmania The Pook old hand The Pook old hand Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,067 Tasmania Well, dare I say it, I'm glad we got to the bottom of that then... 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