|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
OP
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Does any of you folks know if your local bats colonies circle clockwise or counterclockwise when they leave their caves at dusk? A good number of caves in the northern hemisphere are reported on the net to have large colonies that circle counterclockwise, but I think I remember two colonies here in Alabama that circle clockwise.
In particular, have any of you folks beneath us noticed the direction of the circle of your bats? Thank you.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
Sorry, milum, I am unable to help. To the best of my knowledge, NZ's bats ( both species, the only native non-aquatic mammals up here) all live in the South Island, and I haven't been up there in years.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Geez. milo! The only place I ever in my life saw a swarm of bats was when I was in the Philippines, and the huge University of Santo Tomas building had hundreds of small cracks from many minor earthquakes from which at dusk would come hundreds and hundreds of bats. I don't recall their circling at all, just dispersing in every direction very quickly. I can't think of any reason why they should circle in either direction. Their prey insects were distributed randomly, I'm sure. Not like migratory waterfowl that I one year watched over Susquehannah River, Just below the Conowingo Dam, circling to see which one of them was the fastest and going to be point man (or woman) Offhand, I think they tended to fly counter-clock wise, but I wouldn't swear to it. And anyway, all they were doing was settling who was going to lead, not which direction they were going to head in. What possible reason can you think of why bats should circle?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Sorry, milum, I am unable to help. To the best of my knowledge, NZ's bats ( both species, the only native non-aquatic mammals up here) all live in the South Island, and I haven't been up there in years.
Well, I used to live up there, and I've seen bats coming and going. Never seen them swarming or circling, though.
Is this a bit like water going down the plug hole?
- Pfranz
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
a bit like water going down the plug hole?
Or down the drain, for that matter. Parbly. One of those things that people believe even though the phenomena are too small to be affected by Coriolis forces.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Well, from the bat's point of view, he's going clockwise.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
from the bat's point of view
How can you say that, Dub'? Bats don't have clocks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
Geez, Mr. Milo. I wish I could remember which direction the cyclone of bats I observed last fall was going. Seems like it was counterclock-wise, but they could have been doing both it was that crazy.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
from the bat's point of viewHow can you say that, Dub'? Bats don't have clocks.I didn't say he knew he was going clockwise; I said his point of view would be clockwise. Clockwise is clockwise, whether you know you're movin' that way or not. Take this as a fact from one who has no natural sense of direction.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
This clock-wise bat of yours; is he looking up or down?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
member
|
member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144 |
Just a-wondering....
Is 'counter-clockwise' the universal phrase in the US? Over here we'd normally say 'anti-clockwise'. Doesn't seem to make any difference to the meaning as you'd get that from the context, but as it was the first time I'd seen it, it set me wondering...
What's the verdict Down Under?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
anti-clockwise here, although the main clock in my house runs in the direction traditoinally called anti-clockwise.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
We actually have a perfectly normal alarm clock which, through some twist of fate, runs backwards (counter- or anti- clockwise) in perfect time. That is, the numbers on the face have now become meaningless, but the hands always read the correct position when it's seen in a mirror. I love it because it's not supposed to run backwards, and it actually ran forward for a long time. No one knows why it switched but I keep it going, and re-set it twice a year for Daylight Saving Time. I admire it because it's just been so obstinately ignoring the way it was designed to work!!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
And I admire your clock, too, Bean. Is this a highly unusual phenomenon among clocks? Is it unique? I mean, is it unique for a clock set up to go clockwise to break independent and reverse direction on its own? If unique, you could submit your clock to Ripley's.
I don't like the sound of anti-clockwise as much as counter-clockwise simple because of the alliterative loss in anti-clockwise. But it's always useful to have another term.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Is this Information or an Announcement?
I've lived above and below, and always used to watch dogs in both hemispheres to see which way they turned around before settling down. Not to mention faucets and drains. No conclusions reached. Guess they were too small. Never saw enough bats at one time to notice.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
AnnaS:
This is Anti-Information and Counter-Announcement.
On dogs:
One one dog:
Nikita, our now gone-to-dog-heaven husky, always turned counter-clockwise before settling down. Huskies are from the Northern hemisphere; they know nothing about and are unaffected by the Coriolus Effect.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Do hurricanes "know" about it?
Depending on what you mean by "know", yes they do. Dogs, on the other hand, are small scale phenomena and *don't know about Coriolis forces.
Regarding clocks: some electric clocks have a little knob to twist to get them started. You can twist it either way and the motor will happily turn in the direction imposed upon it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Hey, we're out of school due to slush. Yes, slush. Were I in NY, we'd have a honkin' big martini, stirred anti-clockwise, which sounds like slowing down time, just because you spelled Coriolis correctly and I didn't.
Hey, do people in the Southern hemisphere stir their pots anti-clockwise or clockwise? If this is a yart, please advise, but I can't recall our discussing how Southern hemisphere beings stir their pots.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Probably depend on whether or not they were left-handed, WW. Slush??!! Oh, to be in the South (of the Northern hemisphere) again.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Of course bats that live in church steeples would be clock wise.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
"Of course bats that live in church steeples would be clock wise."
Unless they were in the habit of going widdershins.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
the habit of going widdershins
It would seem natural, bats being normally indisposed to being sungates.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Hwæt hwæt? No capisce sungates?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
"No capisce sungates?"
Nope. Are ya gonna enlighten me, or leave me twisting in the linguistic wind? And which way would I twist in the northern hemisphere, anyway?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Twist both ways, birdseed, and see which way feels most natural to you.
I tried it and I can tell you for a fact I am WiddershinsWind.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Bats dinna gae oot inna sun.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
twisting in the linguistic wind
Non tempestatispicem eges ut scias e quo parte flat ventus.
Sungates is the other way round from widdershins.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
"Bats dinna gae oot inna sun."
Well OK, it kinda makes sense now. Is sungates really a word? I couldna find it in me dictionary, laddies.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I checked onelook and nada there. But upon googling "sungates" and "direction" found one entry, a long discourse from (supposedly) the Domestic Annals of Scotland, which I'll paste below: rest. It was alleged that, twenty-two years ago, she had been found sitting in a field of green corn before sun-rising, when, being asked what she was doing, she said: ‘I have been peeling the blades of the corn: I find it will be ane dear year; the blade of the corn grows withershins [contrary to the course of the sun]: when it grows sungates about [in the direction of the sun’s course], it will be ane cheap year.’http://www.electricscotland.com/history/domestic/vol1ch8c.htm
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Leaving us to wonder whether a cheap year or a dear year is preferable.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Corn seller wants a dear year, buyer wants a cheap year. Widdeershins remindes me of German "wieder" which can mean "against" but I can't figure out the "shins".
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. widdershins
SYLLABICATION: wid·der·shins PRONUNCIATION: wdr-shnz VARIANT FORMS: or with·er·shins (wth-) ADVERB: In a contrary or counterclockwise direction: “The coracle whirled round, clockwise, then widdershins” (Anthony Bailey). ETYMOLOGY: Middle Low German weddersinnes, from Middle High German widersinnes : wider, back (from Old High German widar; see wi- in Appendix I) + sinnes, in the direction of (from sin, direction, from Old High German; see sent- in Appendix I).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
German "wieder" which can mean "against"
Actually, that's "wider", and it also surfaces in "withstand". Anglo-Saxon was "wið". As regards the "shins" part, that's explained in the dictionary along with the rest. It means "sense" or "direction", which I guess looks weird to English speakers, but in German, "clockwise" is "Uhrzeigersinn" ("in the direction of the clockpointers" or hands).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
in the direction of the clockpointers
And the clockpointers go that way because that's the way the shadow went on the sundial face.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
However, the German "der Widder" (ram or Aries) has nothing to do with this whatsoever, no matter how contrary those two species can be at times.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,542 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,542 Likes: 1 |
... the clockpointers go that way because that's the way the shadow went on the sundial face
Do the shadows on a sundial in the southern hemisphere march "clockwise," too? (Don't quibble; you know what I mean !)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
shadows on a sundial in the southern hemisphere march "clockwise,"
No, assuming I know what you mean.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,542 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,542 Likes: 1 |
...do shadows on a sundial in the southern hemisphere march "clockwise?" (don't quibble, you know what I mean)
No, assuming I know what you mean.
Clarification: "clockwise" = looking at a circle from above, starting at the top and moving to the right around it
Which means that if "clockwise" is defined from sundial-shadow motion, it's linguistic-based evidence that clocks were invented (read "modern civilization arose") in the northern hemisphere. Yes?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
And it's not really belaboring the obvious. It's pointing out interesting evidence. (I don't know anything about the history of clock making, but your point is interesting enough that I'm about to google the subject. )
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I have been privileged to see the famous bat colony of Austin, Texas, emerge--once. I was too awed by the sheer numbers (up to a million and a half) to actually notice whether they wheeled clockwise or not, but as I cast my mind back, the image seems to be clockwise. Here's a link that explains about drag, lift, and thrust. Possibly these are subject to the Coriolis effect. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/physics.htmlHere is a link to the first of 5 or 6 pictures of them emerging. But if anyone can tell which way, you're a better observer than I am. http://www.pbase.com/image/264541
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Possibly these are subject to the Coriolis effect.
The reason that small scale phenomena don't show a noticeable correlation to Coriolis forces is that the Coriolis forces are small compared to other conditions. In the case of the sink drain, filling the sink from an off center tap will set up motion in the water that will not damp out before the drain is opened. If the water is circulating clockwise it will go down the drain clockwise. In the case of tornadoes, local topography will have a greater effect on the air flow than Coriolis forces will. The same is true for any aerodynamic forces that the bats will experience.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Here is a very long list of links to bat sites. Well worth browsing. I found one picture of a lot of bats flying at dusk, but they did not appear to be circling. http://www.batbox.org/old_bat_house.html
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
OP
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Jackie, the Austin bat colony of 1,500,000 that you saw is said to rise from their roost in the bridge counterclockwise. And so says this from the National Park Service...
"Hundreds of thousands of Mexican free-tailed bats, whirling counterclockwise, spill forth from a gigantic hole in the earth and are silhouetted against a colorful desert sky ... this is the bat flight experience at Carlsbad Caverns National Park."
And faldage, yes the coriolis effect is small on small sized structures but it tugs with unrelenting persistence. Animals that fly especially need every economy of energy that they can get.
By-the-way, in the morning after the night of feeding, the northern hemisphere bats fly back home, but they don't screw themselves (clockwise) back into the cave, instead they dive in a straight line to the mouth of the cave and on to their roost.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Animals that fly especially need every economy of energy that they can get.
The point is that other forces swamp the Coriolis forces. It's not that it isn't there or that the samll animals can afford to ignore it; it's the fact that other things are more important at that scale.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Milo: I have looked at a lot of the sites. I finally saw a picture of the narrow gaps between the concrete blocks that make spaces the bats can use in large numbers. I wondered how it could be possible for the narrow range of temperatures the bats need. One thing: I wonder how far the bats have to fly for all of them to find enough insects. It must be quite a distance, covering a very large area.
Dear Milo: I have a new theory for you. One of the sites said the bats are classified as primates. Is is possible that like humans they are right "handed", and have the right wing slightly more powerful than the left, which would tend to make them circle to the left, counterclockwise? (taking my tongue out of my cheek.) i'm sure Faldage will agree with me that is more probable than the Coriolis force.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
anti-clockwise here, although the main clock in my house runs in the direction traditoinally called anti-clockwise.That's because you guys Upunder dwell in counter-matter!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Well, milum, you could always look at it this way...no matter which direction the bats fly in...guano is still guano!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Here's an elementary bat quiz that none of us here would have any problem in scoring 100% on. The quiz is set up so that you can pretty much tell the answer without knowing it, but you might have a child somewhere who'd like to take the quiz. Do not go to this site if you're not curious about elementary bat quizzes! http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/bats/quiz.html
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
hat is more probable than the Coriolis force.
Not if I have to accept the notion that they are primates to do it. What's the site, Dr Bill?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear FakdageL I'll have a hell of a time finding that site again. It said they were primates on the basis of having mammary glands located in the pectoral area. I too wondered why that was enough to relate them to us.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Here ;is a site about fling fox, fruit bats, saying they meet criteria to be called primates. [urk]www.batcon.org/batsmag/v3n2-1.html[/url]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Coriolis force.
So which way does a baseball rotate when it hits and leaves the bat? Does it rotate differently in each hemisphere? And what about other batted (cricket) and thrown objects...does the Coriolus affect them in any way, or is it simply the centrifugal spin of contact? I know the spin of thrown objects is almost wholly influenced by the style of release, but are there any hemispheric factors at work in this?
And what about a boomerang...will it come back in an oppsite arc in the Northern hemisphere?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Well, damn! Bats are primates, according to the OED, wihch lists primates as the highest order of the Mammalia, including man, monkeys, lemurs, and in the Linnaean order, bats.
Now there is a trivia question that deserves to be on Jeopardy.
TEd
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
OP
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Bats are Primates.
Thats it. I've had it. Next thing you know we'll be closing caves to protect the homes of our distant cousins the bat.
Wait a minute. We already are. Five of the caves that I used to visit in Alabama have been closed to humans for the sake of our little precious guano making idiot cousin the bat.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
>Five of the caves that I used to visit in Alabama have been closed to humans for the sake of our little precious guano making idiot cousin the bat.
Well, if you're upset that you've been denied further permission to play in your relatives' homes, why not invite them to come play in yours? Turnabout is fair play, is it not?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
And he could make a fortune peddling bat guano.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Don't let it drive you batty.
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,333
Members9,182
|
Most Online3,341 Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
0 members (),
747
guests, and
1
robot. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|