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Was interested to hear today that there is a link between the expressions "big shot" (ie an important person) and "loose woman".
Any guesses as to what the common thread is?
stales
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Cannon are what the big shots refer to, but I need much more.
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loose cannons
No, wait, that refers to one that isn't fastened down. This sounds like one whose bore is too large. It takes a big shot to fill a loose woman.
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Still no ceegar suh. I've given y'all a clue by stating that there's a common thread.
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Well now. According to this site http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F013BF2 big shot, at least in the US, dates from the 1920s. Course this isn't a registered etymology site but. PS EditQuinion http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-big1.htm mentions it in a general discussion of "big" phrases in a specific discussion of big cheese, apparently dating it after the 1914 appearance of the latter phrase.
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Still no ceegar suh. I've given y'all a clue by stating that there's a common thread.I'd give my left patootie to actually *hear you say that, stales. 
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Looks like the only thread that has all four words in it is this one. At least in AWADtalk.
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cannons are "threaded", after a fashion..
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cannons are "threaded"
As are loose women?
Or do they both sink ships?
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>as are loose women?
or not..
(perhaps I should have written "some cannons are threaded....")
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cannons are "threaded", after a fashion..
...but threadnodists' canons are almost never loose.
sorry...
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Well, a loose cannon would be one that is cut a bit too large for the caliber shell required, and, in the old days, they would have to employ the ramrod rather emphatically in order to tighten the shell against the charge...? sounds good to me!
And, of course, the artillery units who employed the largest caliber cannon balls were considered to be the "big shots".
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a loose cannon would be one that is cut a bit too large for the caliber shell required
And I thought a loose cannon was one not securely fastened to the deck; one that moves about unpredictably and dangerously after being fired, causing as much potential harm to the gun crew as to their intended target.
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And I thought a loose cannon was one not securely fastened to the deck; one that moves about unpredictably and dangerously after being fired, causing as much potential harm to the gun crew as to their intended target.Uh, Faldo...didn't ya see the twinkle in me eye when I was a-tellin' the aboveforementioned yarn? 
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the twinkle in me eye
Uh-huh.
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Was interested to hear today that there is a link between the expressions "big shot" and "loose woman". - STALES FALDAGE: (post edit apology, mw) said "cannons" in whiteout. One is a bore with big balls and one balls with a big bore. Honest Jackie, I don't like this kind of stuff. I just wanted to try to clear this space for erudite studies about words. ()
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both are cannons
There you go again. I din't say nothin of the sort!
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Beware of the left hand thread. And tight is preferable to loose.
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Bill:
In my mind, a cannon has no rifling in the barrel. They were basically smooth-bores, I thought. I looked up cannon in the OED and found this: . A piece of ordnance; a gun or fire-arm of a size which requires it to be mounted for firing. (The leading current sense.) The following varieties are mentioned in the 16th-17th c.: Canon Royall, height 8 1/2 in.; shot 66 lbs. Canon, height 8 in.; shot 60 lbs. Canon Sarpentine, height 7 1/2 in.; shot 53 lbs. Bastard Canon, height 7 in.; shot 41 lbs. Demy Canon, height 6 1/2 in.; shot 30 lbs. Canon Petro, height 6 in.; shot 24 lbs.
The various sizes are of interest, particularly the canon petro. I wondered if it has any relationship to a petard, but apparently it doesn't. There's no definition in the OED for petro other than as a combining name for rock or petroleum, but petard comes back as having derived from the french word for fart, peter, with one of those accenty things over the first e.
I also looked up rifle; the first use of that word with relation to a gunbarrel is 1750, the middle of the 18th century, which lends some confirmation to my supposition that cannon is an earlier invention and was essentialy a smooth-bore.
TEd
TEd
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>was essentially a smooth-bore.
Something that can also be said of just about any Tony Blair oration.
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teD, they began rifling the barrels of cannon in the US during the recent unpleasantness (Civil War, that is).
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Alrighty then - enough's enough. Thanks all for your efforts, the q was harder than I thought. To quote myself, "Any guesses as to what the common thread is?The answer that question is "cotton". As for the link between the two phrases, I'm told (and my sources are fallible) that both phrases arose in South East USA - cotton country. So the story goes, when an important person sailed into the cotton ports the ship they were aboard fired one of its cannon. The bigger the bang the more important the personage. Hence "big shot". During the Civil War there were numerous Southern society women widowed. With a need to generate an income but without a bread winner, many sought employment at the cotton mills. They were well used to turning themselves out in full corsets, but soon found these too restrictive for mill work. By loosening their corsets they were better able to do the job expected of them. The same women were obviously keen to catch themselves a wealthy mill owner and therefore were the subject of derision by their more 'common' co-workers. No doubt the notion of loose-corseted women rapidly evolved into something more lurid among the worker folk. stales
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I seem to remember in the first of t;he Godfather series Mario Puzo mentioned early Italian
mobster leaders carried "pezo de novante" - ninety calibre pistols. Never saw name of
maker. But ninety calibre was indeed a "big shot".(PS - I'm unsure of spelling)
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cotton? good i haven't been guessing
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I think someone is having us on!
TEd
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having us on
I found nothing about the origin of the phrase "loose woman" in any of my reputable word and phrase origin fave sites, probably because it doesn't really need an explanation. The loose corset theory sounds like a folk etymology. Refering to someone of loose moral standards seems pretty upfront to me.
The late origin of "big shot" would seem to argue against any cannon salute explanation. Is there any evidence that cannon salutes were ever used for anyone other than a head of state or other highly placed statesman or military type? And even then, it's not the size of the shot but the number of guns fired that denotes rank.
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And even then, it's not the size of the shot but the number of guns fired that denotes rank.Must...resist...temptation...
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Must...resist...temptation...~ WhitmanOneill Why WO'N , nobody else has.
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resist...temptation
If you're tempted by that, perhaps you need to examine some issues.
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If you're tempted by that, perhaps you need to examine some issues.Yes, but, unfortunately, the Issue Examiner is away on holiday.
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away on holiday
I guess you're on your own, then. Good luck.
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Gee Whiz gang, I hate the term "issues" it somehow implies a false focus on things that are ever-so-rightly confined and virtuous and therefore important, but all it really says is that "my thought are "in" and therefore current". Good Lord, don't people anymore think?  ???
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Next to myself, I like cotton best. But not in thread. All my old shirts used to lose buttons
sust because mildew got into the cotton thread. Synthetic thread lasts. Badword cotton thread.
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Ohmigawd, I wish I'd found this thread (ahem) earlier. You people crack me up! First the obvious answer [donning GQ hat] is put in white, then all of you go off on the tangent of loose cannons, which wasn't even a PART of the original quiz. Stales, Honey--Ah hate to bring up this possibility, but Ah do believe the corset story smacks more of imagination than fact. Smooth bore/Tony Blair: snort!
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Bill:
I'd not heard that before about the thread mildewing, and it doesn't seem likely that it's mildew.
Cotton thread should always be used with cotton cloth because synthetic thread cuts cotton. Peggy will not use anything except cotton fabric to make quilts with, and she always always always uses cotton thread with it. Cotton thread admittedly isn't as strong, but your quilts don't break apart on top of you either.
TEd
For WarpWondering:
Egyptian cotton is softer, and has much longer fibers than does cotton grown here in the US. This makes it possible to make thinner thread, which means you can put more threads to the inch. And the more threads to the inch the better quality and the better feel to the fabric.
TEd
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Dear TEd: I didn't grow any fungi or whatever to prove it, but I have had every thread holding a
shirt button break as though it had been soaked in strong chemical. Mildew seems to be the only
explanation. It is a a bit tricky sewing with nylon or other synthetic thread. I can understand a
quilter not wanting to bother with it. My wife wouldn't. She also would use a machine to quit, until
she got very painful repetitive motion injury, and could no sew by hand any longer. I despse quilts
because they are so easily damaged, particulary by washing. They may be an art form, but their real
reason for existing was high cost of fabric a hundred years ago meant old garments were worth
salvaging, even small pieces. Quilts today are a stupid anachronism.
And everybody seems to have overlooked fact I said I hate synthethics in contact with me. But
shirts with fabric made with synthetic core wrapped with cotton make good sense. And if I replace
a button, I do it with nylon or other synthetic thread. Even though the shirt will wear out before
the button breaks off again. End of rant.
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Quilts today are a stupid anachronism
Well, I suppose blankets and bedspreads do keep us as physically warm as quilts do. I do happen to think most quilts are pretty, but to me they are more than something pretty, or something to keep us warm. To me, they serve as a tangible reminder of how things used to be, and how lucky I am not to have to scrimp and save every scrap. I think that if a person makes a quilt, particularly as a gift, that it is a labor of love; and it may be a display of skill, as well, though to me that's secondary.
In the book "Christy" by Catherine Marshall, there is a scene where Christy is at the home of a destitute mountain woman, and notices the quilt with its unusual pattern. The woman says that she has looked out the cabin's one window and memorized how the moon and stars look through it at different times, and transferred those patterns onto the quilt. This woman had combined creativity with necessity, to my way of thinking.
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There are many stupid anachronisms. At the top of my list is the necktie. There was a time
when houses had no central heating, when men wore hats in the house and needed something
to fill in area uncovered by suit coat. Look at the old pictures with throat coverings the size
of a table napkin. First they were functional, then they were given color and lace. It has been
many years since they served any useful purpose except to advertise what prestigious
university you attended, and maybe even graduated from. Now they are just a damned
shibboleth, absence of which can bar you from stylish restaurant. I despise the notion that
clothes make the man. Stuffed shirts only benefit from them. (Let the battle rage!)
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Don't get me started on a rant about allegely male couturieres
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Men wear neckties as their handicap as women wear high heeled shoes as theirs. The necktie cuts off blood supply to the brain, thus compensating for the males' greater intelligence as the women's high heeled shoes compensate for their greater physical abilities.
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>Quilts today are a stupid anachronism.
Well then, I hope that AWADtalk's "stupidly anachronistic" member doesn't take offence at your harsh words and abandon work on the quilt she's making for my wife. From an email received recently, it sounds as if she will be spending even more time and effort on this stupid anachronism. You had better show her the error of her ways, Dr. Bill.
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Dear sjm: you may rely on it that I never said that when my wife was spending many dollars
and many,many hours sewing tiny pieces into squares, and going to dozens of meetings to
show her work and see that of her firiends. many of thhe ones she never finished, and quite
a few of those she did finish went into a Dumpster. Sad.
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sjm, I wonder if it's the same AWAD member who so kindly and generously, in the midst of great upheaval in her life, sent us a table-runner quilt she made with us in mind, mind you, as a wedding present?
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If we're talking of one who's been busy heeding the injunction, "Go West, young lass!" then, yup, that's her. Junior Wheatgerm, that is
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neckties
I was wondering the other day about the longevity of this current style of men's neckwear. It seems the necktie as we know it has survived in its current fashion for over a hundred years now. But if you look at historical pictures prior to the late 1800s, you'll see the rapidity in the change in fashion of men's neckwear, somtimes every decade, and at least from generation to generation. So why did the necktie fasten itself like a cloth iron around our necks?
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to misquote Faldage
And do me ten times better in the process. LLOL, Dub' (Well I would have LLedOL, but the lovely ASp still has five minutes of down time).
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AnnaS - thanx for the link re Anna Nicole Smith. I think the bestower of "Worst Dressed" awards and the journo have it all wrong. One look at the lady tells you that being dressed is not what she's all about. Oh, and BTW, I was intrigued to note your nick could be a derivation of her name. (Well, at least the name she is known by these days; no longer is she Vickie Lynn Hogan). Do the similarities end there? Send pics if no - you have my email address.
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neckties
Do you USns always call them "neckties"??
We call em "ties" - always.
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1. You look cute in 'em (to some of us, that is) Ohh, yeah. 2. The necktie offers an infinite form of variety: patterns, colors, scenes, fabrics (finite set, I suppose), logos, art-on-a-strip-of-cloth Glad you didn't restrict that to "pretty". 3. It's phallic ? Hrm... 4. Some people are impressed that you can tie 'em at all It does take a bit of know-how. I actually learned to tie a necktie from fastening a saddle girth. 5. Life is a series of knots to be tied and untied Woo, profound! 6. It's a giant arrowhead Ohmigawd--pointing to what, dare I ask?? 7. It's a bow on a package of male I LOVE it! 8. You can honestly say when wearin' 'em and want to get out of something, "I'm all tied up now" Ha! 9. It's a rocket Er-- ? 10. And (to misquote Faldage): It cuts off the supply of blood to your brains thereby leveling the mental playing field ...and sending it to... No, I won't say it! ========================================================= stales, here in the south, we often do say necktie. We may be somewhat behind other folks, in still saying that. If I say just 'tie', I want to be sure my hearer understands from my context that I'm not talking about, say, a garbage tie. If my husband were to say, "Bring me a tie", I'd need to know whether he was getting ready to go to work, or to take out the garbage. Though the Christmas necktie his brother fobbed off on him would be put to better use tying up the trash, I think...
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>we call 'em ""ties" - always Yep, on this side of the Tasman too, "necktie" would be thought odd or old-fashioned at best, stupidly pretentious at worst. BTW, stales, congrats on Aussie's result against Sri Lanka last night.
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Do you USns always call them "neckties"??Interesting query, stales...actually, both. I'd always say "a shirt and tie" or, as a compliment, "I like your tie," or "hand me a tie". But, it seems to me now, at a distance, I'm more apt to say "necktie"..."should I wear a necktie?", "I hate wearing a necktie," "I don't own many neckties." Of course, in some quarters, "shirt and tie" or "shirt and tie affair" means the more formal tuxedo and black tie...sometimes more specifically referred to as a "black tie affair". Which leads us to a question for all the bowtie wearers out there...do you ususally say bow with your tie? And will the gentlemen of the board be willing to share their tie preference? Necktie here. And, gee, thanks for clearing up my question for me, Dub-Dub!
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I was looking for a picture to illustrate a conuncrum: When is a tie not a tie? When its a Texas shoestring just threaded though a metal ornament. I couldn't find a picture, but I did find an essay that I thought mildly amusing. http://home.attbi.com/~practical/devniad/devniads/d59.pdf
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When its a Texas shoestring just threaded though a metal ornament.It's called a bolo tie and the slide is often highly ornamental in a southwest jewelry design style. http://www.srvfanclub.com/images/art/bolo.htm
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It's called a bolo tie and the slide is often highly ornamental in a southwest jewelry design style.
....as worn by every male lapidary club member of post retirement age throughout the known universe.
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I remember in the silent movies the cowboys used to have a bandanna tied around their necks,
to cover the throat, and be pulled up over the nose and mouth when the cattle stirred up dust,
and a filter was needed to breathe without choking on dust. Also worn as mask by bad guys
duing robberies. That's functional, and made sense. But absurd now.
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