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Just now on C-SPAN2's Book TV, a woman was introducing Jeff Shaara to speak about his new historical novel, The Glorious Cause, about the American Revolution, and she said: ..."The Founding Fathers, or as they're calling them today, The Founding Brothers."  Huh? What? Who? First of all, if this, indeed, is the case (though I've never heard it before), this is truly PC run-amok, way-over overkill. And I don't get it...what's the PC advantage of saying brothers instead of fathers, anyway..who's the less offended for that? And it changes the whole semantical equation, because the sense of progenitor in father is the heart of the image here. They can't be mothers, and brothers aren't progenitors in the symbolic sense. So, huh? Is George Washington now to be "The Brother of Our Country?" What on earth is going on here? Of all the PC affectations, unnecessary and inaccurate historical revisionisms drive me up the wall the most (not to say that a historical truth uncovered should not be made to stand). And, no, this is not Afrocentric  ...but it is kind of ironic, isn't it? 
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chill, Juan. it's a reference to quite a well-known, and pretty good (and Pulitzer Prize winning, not that this signifies), book titled (wait for it)... Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation by Joseph J. Ellis.
(that's brothers, in the sense of a squabbling family...)
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I think the issue here is that "founding brothers" was presented as if it had already become common usage ("... or as they're calling them today, The Founding Brothers...") when in fact this is not the case. I for one am insulted by this kind of transparent spin-doctoring because it insults my intelligence. Furthermore, recent prize-winning books or not, Founding Fathers is a phrase that is not broken and therefore does not need fixing. The sexual-political motivations of those who promote "Founding Brothers" are clear to the casual observer so I won't belabor the point.
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Alex, have you read the book?
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Agreed, Alex. And I think the substitution of brothers, at the very least, is still a subtle way of diluting the importance of the contributions of men like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin to the forming and shaping of the republic. To imply, to any degree, that these figures were not the major influence in the formation of the United States is just nonsensical, and historically wrong.
(that's brothers, in the sense of a squabbling family...)
tsuwm, do you have a citation or definition that supports this semantic for the word "brothers"?...that's a new one on me.
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c'mon juan, you know that was just an aside. I suggest that both you and Alex take a look at, say, the intro to "Founding Brothers" at one of the online bookstores -- I know that Amazon has a sizeable extract.
(and we really don't know the whole context, or tone of "... or as they're calling them today, The Founding Brothers...", do we?)
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I am not criticizing the book, I am objecting to revisionist, politically correct-speak being thrust upon us. It is a separate issue from the contents of the book titled Founding Brothers. To suggest that from now on we stop referring to Washington, Jefferson, et al as "Founding Fathers" and now call them "Founding Brothers" is like something out of Huxley's Brave New World. To further suggest or hint that everybody in-the-know is already doing so is even more so.
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and I am merely suggesting that you guys are reading an awful lot into this possibly off-the-cuff comment...
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No, it wasn't just an aside in reference to the book, tsuwm...
Exhibit 1: The title of Ellis's book is Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation
Exhibit 2: The host said, "The Founding Fathers, or as they're calling them today, The Founding Brothers," which directly associates the term brothers specifically to The Founding Fathers. Therefore, the host is changing the historical label here, and not just alluding to the book as an inside literary clache reference. And even if she had alluded to the book in that context, "The Founding Fathers, or The Founding Brothers, as Joseph J. Ellis calls them in his brilliant new brook," it is still an out-of-context labeling since Ellis's book refers to the "brothers" as the entire generation, not just the leaders and shapers of the new republic. Any way you look at it, she took the liberty and opportunity to nudge forward the nomenclature of Founding Fathers as Founding Brothers in the traditional historic sense...so that's her agenda (however-so-subtle), not Ellis's book.
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Too many people want to re-write history.
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revisionist, politically correct-speak being thrust upon us
Now we gotta look into The Glorious Cause. If it follows the concept of Founding Brothers I would say the comment, given its context, was appropriate, and not an attempt to thrust revisionist, politically correct-speak upon us.
And is the term revisionist a valid criticism if what it describes is an attempt to show the truth of what had previously been no more than an idealized myth?
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>Ellis's book refers to the "brothers" as the entire generation...
not at all. the "brothers" of the title are the six leading men of the revolutionary generation. the term is used to reflect the fact that, at the time of their crucial activities, they did not view themselves as fathers of anything, but as a (yes squabbling, in my term) group of compatriots who were sometimes collaborative, sometimes archly antagonistic. [you can't get much more antagonistic than Hamilton and Burr.]
as to the use by your commentator, I give up--I didn't hear her, but from your original description it didn't sound like anything to get worked up about. ; )
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Yes, and my father was really a brother because he didn't forsee what he was creating. Eugene O'Neill is called "The Father of the American" theatre because he single-handedly elevated the American stage to a level of integrity, art, stature, and respect it had never realized before. Now he didn't set out to do all that, his ambition was to write great plays. But, nevertheless, that was the impact of his influence, and the title "The Father of the American Theatre" is something he earned historically....and history is always in retrospect...even though he didn't consciously seek or envision that influence for himself, and didn't walk around calling himself that. And, Faldage, even if seen as an idyllic myth they still fathered that vision in the documents of the Declaration of Independence and The US Constitution, and inaugurated the launch of the republic (would you say they mothered it, or brothered it?). And, remember, the host was aware that she was on national TV. She had maybe a minute to make her introduction, and I'm sure she went over, at least in close outline, the remarks she intended to say. I know whenever I speak in front of people I go over it beforehand...and especially if you have a limited, and rare, moment to speak in front of a national televison audience...no flip slip of wit there. And speaking of a flip slip of wit : Brother Time Brother Christmas "Our Brother, who art in heaven..."
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In reply to:
And is the term revisionist a valid criticism if what it describes is an attempt to show the truth of what had previously been no more than an idealized myth?
I think its a valid criticism when newspeak is being introduced in an effort to bring down the historical figures a peg or two. "Founding Brother" has less prestige or authority than "Founding Father," and I suspect that those who advocate the use in common speech of the former term do so because they object to the literal expression of paternalism in the latter.
As to the truth vs. idealized myth, which is which? I'm sure the men who shaped our country were flawed persons, and had the prejudices of their day in addition to whatever individual vices they carried. They probably thought, for example, that other races were so beneath whites that it would be overstating the obvious to say so. Their attitudes toward women were probably less than liberal by today's standards. They weren't gods, but I don't think that detracts from their lasting civic accomplishments.
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As to the truth vs. idealized myth, which is which?
Truth is what happened, idealized myth isn't. Santayana said that those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it. History is the study of human actions. If that which we study does not reflect that which happened it is not history, it's just some fairy tale designed to make us feel good. If a historical figure is set up a peg or two too high then it is our responsibility to bring him down to where he belongs.
In the case that brought this discussion up it would seem that the perpetrator of the phrase "or as they're calling them today", at best misunderstood the point of The Founding Brothers, perhaps only having read the New York Times Book Review. That's not my concern here. I don't like it when the term revisionist gets thrown around as though it were automatically a bad thing.
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I don't like it when the term revisionist gets thrown around as though it were automatically a bad thing.
Who said that?..here's what I said about revisionism:
>Of all the PC affectations, unnecessary and inaccurate historical revisionisms drive me up the wall the most (not to say that a historical truth uncovered should not be made to stand).<
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Who said that?..here's what I said about revisionism:
You stay out of this, Juan. This is between Alex and me.
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In reply to:
Truth is what happened, idealized myth isn't.
I agree. I wasn't alive then so I'll have to sift through one story or another. Every story will contain some truth and some mistakes or distortions. One era's "truth" is the next era's myth.
Which myth is it that is being brought down anyway? We're not arguing some concrete thing here over what happened or what didn't happen. My main complaint all this time is I resent self-righteous busibodies who presume to tell me how I should talk, as if I were an insensitive, ignorant dolt who needs re-education. As far as I am concerned, the people who think that adopting new phrases actually makes anything any better are either condescending or jingoistic or both.
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Juan, I think this is *really a matter of context and life experiences. ;)
we started from this position: I didn't hear the lady in question, and you hadn't read the book. when I read your statement, having read the book, I made the immediate connection: I thought I knew who the founding brothers were and why they were being called that by some, and it wasn't a big deal to me. that's all. well now it's too late for me to hear the lady, but I still can recommend the book to you.
and as Faldage said, we'd both know a lot more about the context if we'd read both books..
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we'd both know a lot more about the context if we'd read both books
FWIW, the end flap blurbs, as noted at amazon.com, don't seem to indicate a book that's tell all about the secret lives of our Founding Bubbas.
Alex, the truth, of course, can never be fully known. The lady in question truly sounds like she's got her head stuck somewhere where it shouldn't oughta go but that will have to remain one of life's minor mysteries, at least for me. Like tsuwm, I doubt I'll ever hear her in context so I can make no judgements. If this was the sort of TV show I suspect it might have been, I would hardly consider any pronouncement from the host as anything to pay any much mind to.
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You stay out of this, Juan. This is between Alex and me.
Huh? When did I pass thru the chopped liver paté machine on this here thread?
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Well that's true and I didn't mean to sound like I was taking umbrage over it. It isn't necessarily her comment alone, so much as it is a general trend of prescriptive language modification that irks the crap out of me. As far as book titles go, it is catchy, and is both familiar and new. I just get tired of people who strike me as essentially superficial and stupid trying to make me feel like the world is divided into 2 groups: right-minded people who do everything they suggest vs. evil nazi-racist-sexist-bastards who are out to enslave the world. In three generations when everyone's a vegetarian, we'll all be reviled by the younger crowd because we once flushed the toilet more than once a week, drove cars, ate meat and allowed people to ride motorcycles if they felt like it.
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the chopped liver paté machine
Get with the program, Juan. It's minced birdseed now. Chopped liver paté is like so last night.
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Sure, tsuwm, I'd love to read the book...I love good history! Just to keep it simple: if Jefferson, Washington, et al had been women and were The Founding Mothers I'd have absolutely no problem with that. However, I couldn't abide The Founding Sisters for all the same reasons.
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we'll all be reviled by the younger crowd because
Somewhere there must be a middle ground between accusing them of being evil incarnate because they worked within a system that was interlaced with slavery and treating them as though they were simon pure and above such tawdry matters.
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My main complaint all this time is I resent self-righteous busibodies who presume to tell me how I should talk, as if I were an insensitive, ignorant dolt who needs re-education. As far as I am concerned, the people who think that adopting new phrases actually makes anything any better are either condescending or jingoistic or both.gee whiz folks, let's step back a bit a re-read: all she did was refer to another book that speaks about the same topic. there was no PC agenda to change what the developers of our country are called. I think it's interesting to put their lives in the context of brothers; arguing, struggling, caring deeply about what they were doing, and more than likely about each other. edit: sorry, I was writing my reply while all this other good stuff was going on.. I apologize for being a slow typist... I started typing after WO'N's chopped paté post...
formerly known as etaoin...
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And should we change the phrase "grandfathered in" to "grandbrothered in"?...just a thought.
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Get with the program, Juan. It's minced birdseed now. Chopped liver paté is like so last night.Yeahbut®, whattid birdfeed ever do to you, she's one of our finest new members! Therefore, from now on (or for a while, at least) I'm opting for, "What am I? Stewed petunias!!?"
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>whattid birdfeed ever do to you?
it's birdseed®!!
-joe birdseed
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it's birdseed®!!Of course it is...I just wanted to see who would be the first to take the trouble to point that out for us.  tswum, you win!!! Anyhoo, birdseed is birdfeed, so... not mincing any words here
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Ok, now that that argument's settled , what do we do with the terms Sons of the Revolution and Daughters of the Revolution? Are we all nieces and nephews now?
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birdseed is birdfeed, so...
So, hwæt? Birdfeed is birdseed? I think not! That's the Fallacy of the Illicit Minor and birdfeed is the ASp's old high school buddy so she ain' no minor, illicit nor notherwise!
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In reply to:
Somewhere there must be a middle ground between accusing them of being evil incarnate because they worked within a system that was interlaced with slavery and treating them as though they were simon pure and above such tawdry matters.
I didn't think my sarcasm needed translation, but thanks anyway.
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simon pure
? As in, Simonized (shining)?
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