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By's post reminded me of a query I meant to launch here before my cyber meltdown distracted me. There are times when I'm out driving, or even walking sometimes, when suddenly, and for no apparent reason, the utterly familiar takes on this strange aura of total, raw, unfamiliarity, sometimes even to the point of acutally becoming disoriented in my mind's eye for a few seconds, actually asking myself "where am I?" until the familar snaps back into focus. It's a peculiar sensation that I find intriguing, actually. But I guess other folks experience this too...the familiar becoming totally unfamiliar for a few seconds or more...suddenly, you don't know where you are, even though you're on a most familiar stretch of road, and everything just looks totally unfamiliar for awhile, and then it comes back into familiar focus. But is there a word for this? (and, no, it's not vertigo  ) This is a serious proposition though...and if there's not a word for this experience can we coin one?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Would this be a mild form of dissociation?
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Carpal Tunnel
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There's also jamais vu (never seen) and presque vu (almost seen) for which I have Catch-22 to thank. Whether they're legit terms I wouldn't know. YCLIUNTYKWTLU.
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old hand
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old hand
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deja va.
(now where was I...)
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Carpal Tunnel
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>Whether they're legit terms I wouldn't know. [re: jamais vu & presque vu]
gosh, you mean French ain't legit?
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Carpal Tunnel
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French ain't legit?
That's a whole nother question.
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Pooh-Bah
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I agree that jamais vu (never seen) correctly describes this sensation. There is a word for this in English, too: stoned.
With language, if you say a word over and over again out loud it can induce the effect.
"Those French! They have a different word for everything!" -- Steve Martin
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Carpal Tunnel
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stoned
Yeah, I meant to put "trippin'" next to vertigo by the tongue emoticon, 'cause I figured somebody was going to bring that up...no, this has nothing to do with any kind of drug induced hallucinatory state (although I suppose it could be applied to that, as well). That's what makes it so curious and intriguing. When something familiar suddenly looks totally unfamiliar. When driving it happens more at nighttime than during the day.
But what makes something familiar?...repetition. What suddenly strips all the registered repetition away to make something look unfamiliar again, if only for a few moments? Isn't this more like something returning to its original state of perception...i.e. original state. Maybe the trigger for the word or term is in there somewhere (returning to an original state).
I think dissociation is the closest so far.
deja vu: you feel like you've seen (or done) something before
(???): you feel like you've never seen something before even though you know it well
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Well dissociation would describe what I meant about saying a word out loud over and over again. It dissociates the phoneme from the meaning.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think the term "jamais vu" works. I remember having read the term, but couldn't remember which novel. Thanks, Faldage. Must be time to reread Catch 22--it's been about thirty years now since that first and last reading..
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wouldn't "disorientation" be just what you're describing?
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Carpal Tunnel
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disorientation
that's a good one. gets my vote.
formerly known as etaoin...
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addict
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From a medical point of view, jamais vu would be the most accurate term to describe your experience, particularly as you describe it as the opposite of deja vu. It is well described in the psychiatric literature and, as with deja vu, is usually a perfectly normal experience rather than indicative of any underlying pathology. Dissociation and disorientation have slightly different medical connotations based on their origin (neurology rather than psychiatry) and probable pathology.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I have to say, I don't recall ever experiencing this phenomenon--while I was awake. I have dreamed, a couple of times, that what should look familiar has changed completely. Maybe it's to do with the way we see things? I seem to see--be aware of, that is--more than the other members of my family. Even when I'm driving, I'm the one who most often points out such things as "One of those cows is a deer". I haven't ever tried to train myself to be particularly alert; is this just yet another variable in what makes us all different from one another?
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Thanks, doc_c! That's it! There is a term for it!  And, what's more, it does seem to be considered the opposite of deja vu, which I find a bit surprising, but. There are seven hits on OneLook and all concur: jamais vun : the experience of being unfamiliar with a person or situation that is actually very familiar; associated with certain types of epilepsy Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University _________________________________________________ And from the Online Medical Dictionary: jamais vuFrom the French, meaning never seen, the illusion that the familiar does not seem familiar, the opposite of the feeling of deja vu. (12 Dec 1998) disorientedDisorientation doesn't quite fit because you're not really disoriented...you're still cogent, you can still drive, think, converse, react, know who you are, etc...it's just that the surroundings seem suddenly unfamiliar...a pretty cool feeling actually for a short while (as long as you come out of it).
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Carpal Tunnel
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Sacre bleu! Jamais vu la dissociation! While Faldage is yet to learn of his liver being chopped, I would like to ask doc C what is meant by ...dissociation and disorientation have slightly different medical connotations based on their origin (neurology rather than psychiatry)... To me the former is usually the psyche's defense reaction to trauma. We can take this to PMs or E-mail if it gets to be too obtuse/abstruse/boring.
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addict
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Disorientation is the loss of awareness of self, place and/or time.
Dissociation is the ... separation of the emotional self from the awareness of self, place and/or time. It is a short-term event, most commonly seen in response to severe trauma, but also occurring in normal situations, such as losing track of time while reading. If it persists, or is recurrent, especially at a young age, a Dissociative Disorder develops. Dissociation sits nicely in the field of neuropsychiatry - it's causes are primarily psychosocial, yet the physical pathology well known and the symptoms reproduceable upon neural stimulation - and my leaning towards a physical basis underlying all psychiatric disorders, along with the initial use of the term to refer to symptoms secondary to emotional trauma (eg shell-shock/PTSD) resulted in my comment that it developed from the field of neurology.
Or something like that.
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old hand
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Back in the eighties me and a friend of mine, a manic depressive personality ( as it was current then to call them then) named Richard Morgan, would enjoy weekly bar room chats where we discussed high philosophy, low cabbages and middling Kings. Richard had an easy manner about him and was well liked by all. Once he told me about his periodic bouts where he felt acute alienation from his immediate surroundings, this, he said, was characteristic of some forms of manic depression. He said that during these spells he felt no point of reference to an interrelated existence with the external world. He said that this was a feeling that was beyond death that had no words. He said that the clinical term was "deja va" and his psychiatrist had said that it had an exact opposite meaning of deja vu.
The last time I saw Richard he was drinking Jack Daniels with tears in his eyes. He kept saying, "Why! "Why not a void!" And if you fine people were there to hear the wail of his tormented soul, you would beg for balm, and give a dollar or so to the church.
Richard died young with a heart attack, abetted by the mix of his manic depression medications with alcohol.
I've checked the medical dictionaries before and after WO'N posed this question and can't find the term listed. But I know this; At that time and place Richard Morgan visited hell many times, and Richard and his psychiatrist knew that hell as "deja va".
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dearest milum, I have a feeling that your friend misunderstood his psychiatrist. What you said he described sounds like what I learned as dissociation.
Heaven knows, it is easy enough to misunderstand medical info., she said speaking from personal experience. For ex., I went around saying that a certain former med. made me cough like crazy, and that the former doctor had told me so. Yet I have since been told by two other doctors that that med. would not cause that symptom... Yet I am SURE that I was at the Dr.'s office when I was told that--so perhaps it was by a nurse...? And yet, casting back in my mind, I am still seeing and hearing the doctor telling me that (I remember feeling very angry that he tossed it out so casually...). See what I mean?
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enthusiast
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Milum, your description of your friend's sad plight brings to mind some of the cases Oliver Sacks outlines in his writings on autism--especially the part about "acute alienation from his immediate surroundings." One case in particular was that of a super-intelligent woman who was, however, incapable of relating to or identifying with other people, even to such things as the beauty of a sunset. My recollection is a bit hazy, but as I recall she would feel stress every so often, recognizing that it stemmed from her lack of involvement. Fortunately, she had a wonderful creative streak and was able to construct a coffin-like box for herself. When she felt the world closing in on her, she would retreat to her box until she could regain some control. That way she managed to lead a productive life.
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journeyman
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W O'N,
It's completely esoteric...that's why it feels good. Reality is a figment of human conciousness, and at moments of jamais vu, perhaps the facade slips away for a little peek...And deja vu, well, that can be quite unsettling, yet inspiring too. But I am afraid that I also had a wonderful, artistic friend who had serious bouts of this and died young as well. We do think that he probably suffered from manic depression (judging from the journals he left behind), but as a bachelor/musician/wanderer he was never diagnosed.
So I guess a little of this jamais vu is fine, but if it starts accelerating, let someone who cares about you know...
mm
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