|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Things are slow today, so I thought I'd post some interesting words and phrases from the John Gardner version.
Grendel speaking of deer: "That is their happiness: they see all life without observing it."
"...blackening the night with my stench..."
"...I am secretly unfooled."
"...fuliginous riddling hex..."
"...pale skin of words that closes me in like a coffin."
"...it was my own language, but spoken in a strange way, as if the sounds were made by brittle sticks, dried spindles, flaking bits of shale."
"...brattling birds..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I admit I'm at a total loss here, great turns-of-phrase aside. Is this a reworking of Beowulf?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
No, it's the book, Grendel, by John Gardner. Grendel is the narrator. I just enjoy some of the words and turns of phrase he used, and thought you all might like to see some, is all.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
Yes but Grendel is a sort of reworking of Beowolf, with the story told from the monster's point of view.
I'm working on a musical version myself. I need help with the title...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I've never heard of the book before... Great idea! And it's not even written in Old English! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
A musical Beowulf, hmm? Well, Grendel swims up through fire-snakes: what about something with fire-snakes in the title?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
I seem to recall a chink, thump, thump, chink (not in Grendel's version, the poor beast). The chiasmus of the old English version does inspire a good beat. It no doubt helped the storytellers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
We do seem to have an innate love of rhythmical patterns, don't we? Maybe visually as well as auditorily?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
Jackie has an astute sense of drawing others out in conversation. Yes, visually as well as auditorily. I know the blocking actions of actors helps them remember lines...I'm certain the oral poets of lore kept their cadence through movement, and when they had a pulled hamstring, they probably improvised (or is it extemporized?), giving us plenty of variability in form.
How many men and women wrote Homer's greatest works?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
How many men and women wrote Homer's greatest works? Is this a trick question? I have to say, my favorite poetical rhythm is the old ta-DA ta-DA ta-DA ta- DUH-UH, ta-DA ta-DA ta-DA ta- DAH. What can I say? I'm a stick-in-the-mud.  Odd--I never realized this before, but the first ta in each line is definitely the pick-up eighth note in 6/8 time. (I realized that when I tried to figure out why I felt compelled to put that UH in there: to allow for the "missing" beats in the measure, since there's no rest symbol in poems.) Songs in triple time are always favorites of mine, too. No, I'm not crazy--I don't think. Thanks, Brandon--you do tend to lead my thoughts down new pathways.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
...very glad to see you back here, Brandon!
(thanks for the straight-man line, Jackie!)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Maybe visually as well as auditorily?
Just 'maybe'?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Maybe visually as well as auditorily?
Just 'maybe'?
I used that word to try and foster some discussion. I can see the argument that we like auditory patterns from hearing Mama's heartbeat in the womb. But what about visual patterns? Why do most people (I think) either demand, or else abhor, visual regularity? Or auditory either, come to think of it?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,561 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,561 Likes: 1 |
In one of the dialogue in Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach (1979) he stipulates that someone with sufficiently fine vision - a Tortoise, for example - could appreciate the beauty of a Bach work simply by examining the visual pattern it generated on the disc...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
could appreciate the beauty of a Bach work simply by examining the visual pattern it generated on the disc...
Oh, I don't THINK so! SOME beauty, maybe, but not THE beauty.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
could appreciate the beauty of a Bach work simply by examining the visual pattern it generated on the disc...
Oh, I don't THINK so! SOME beauty, maybe, but not THE beauty.
Why not? Beauty is subjective, isn't it? I mean, maybe that's all the totortoise would find beautiful about Bach's music. Stranger things have happened, Jackie. You may find this hard, perhaps even nearly impossible, to believe, but apparently there are native speakers of English who don't like Shakespeare's work - is that any easier to accept than an aesthete tortoise?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
I'd bet it's the same beauty.
The reason why we can apply any definition, say for instance 'the number 12', is because it fits the pattern. We may not know on surface seeing 144 things is 12 groups of 'them', but it is indeed the groupings in which we are lookiing for to recognize their pattern. This, of course, doesn't explain why I'd rather draw beauty from 144 broken up into 10 groups of eleven plus two groups of 13 plus a single group of five, and then just not count the remaining 2, but.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I like to say the English alphabet backwards, because the way I worked it out it is much more symmetrical than the familiar forwards pattern. (as spoken with the familiar rhythms-at least to me) forwards: abcdefg hijklmnop qrs tuv wxyz 7 9 3 3 4 backwards: zyxwv utsrq ponmlk jihgf edcba 5 5 6 5 5 I appreciate the symmetry, and therein lies the beauty. for me. 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Good grief, eta, not only did I understand your logic, but I agree with it! Now that's scary!  ========================================================== Why not? Beauty is subjective, isn't it? I'd bet it's the same beauty. Well, finally! I thought I was going to have to post something unbelievably outrageous before anyone called me on it! I guess this argument being resolved might depend on WHY Bach wrote the work: did he write it for aural appreciation, or for the visual pattern? Both could have value, and no doubt do.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I don't think Bach had surface patterns of CDs in mind when he composed any of his stuff. On the other hand, unlike the works of some other composers I could mention, Bach's compositions do seem to work well in almost any instrumentation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Bach's compositions do seem to work well in almost any instrumentation.
Ah, but would the tortoise agree? <eg>
Oh, now I remember what I wanted to put in my last post (I was doing about 6 things at once, and got distracted.) Are there people who, like eatoin and his backwards alphabet, see written music as mathematical patterns? Or even visual patterns? By the latter, I mean reasonably complicated compositions--even I could see that one line of notes written down an octave and then back up would form a V.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
I think that someone could appreciate the abstract beauty of Bach's works by looking at the sheet music (if they understood what they were seeing) or some other representation of the score, such as on the grooves of a disc (presumably you mean a vinyl LP), but I think if that was all they appreciated they would be missing the complete experience.
Who was it that said "Mathematics is music for the mind, and music is mathematics for the soul"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
I appreciate the symmetry, and therein lies the beauty
Symmetry is certainly an feature that transcends the subjectivity of spontaneously perceived Beauty. David Hume explained this by the rarity of naturally occurring perfect symmetry. But there must be more to it: In my experience, really captivating beauty arises from symmetry (including periodicity) which is just slightly broken.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,561 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,561 Likes: 1 |
I think that someone could appreciate the abstract beauty of Bach's works by looking at the sheet music
When Hofstadter wrote about the Tortoise and the Disk he was being tongue-in-cheek. But he also did a column in Metamagical Themas, during the couple of years he took over for Martin Gardner in Scientific American, in which he stressed the visual beauty of Chopin piano scores, distinct from their musical charm. And I think he meant it that time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
if that was all they appreciated they would be missing the complete experience. Thanks, Alex--that's something else I forgot to put. Now: guess what, guess what, you-all? Look at what I found just this afternoon, in Anu's book! (p. 101)
J. S. Bach's Crab Canon is an example of cancrine music. It can be read--and played--from start to finish or from finish to start. Put the music sheet upside down? No problem! You can still play it and it will sound the same. You can see this curious piece of music for yourself on the web. Just go to:
http://www.btinternet.com/~derek.hasted/takeaway/crab.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
that's in G, E, & B, too. symmetry can be a component of beauty. I would agree with wsieber that a subtle non-symmetry can be what makes the difference. for me, beauty arises out of things being experience-able on several levels, all with a proportion and sense of structure that speaks to those different levels. now if someone can tell me what the hell that means I would really appreciate it!
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
In reply to:
In my experience, really captivating beauty arises from symmetry (including periodicity) which is just slightly broken.
Similarly, to me the most beautiful tunes combine harmony and dissonance. For example, at times the note in the melody is in harmony with the underlying bass or chords, and at other times is off a little, like a D note played over a C major chord. (Not sure if I explained that properly...oh well.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,561 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,561 Likes: 1 |
...the most beautiful tunes combine harmony and dissonance
Another (related) set of attributes is Tension and Resolution. They are generally easy to spot if you're looking at that dimension, and when well realized the outcome is exquisite.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Bach's compositions do seem to work well in almost any instrumentation.
I believe this is because he was a composer/performer on pianoforte, not to mention his "big ears".
...and at other times is off a little, like a D note played over a C major chord.
This sound is so "key centered" (to me) that it is not at all "off" [crossthreading], but I know what you meant!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
Well it's certainly true that you can get a lot more dissonant than a D 9th chord.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Tension and Resolution. They are generally easy to spot if you're looking at that dimension, and when well realized the outcome is exquisite. Yes; I once referred to this as a musical orgasm. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
...and when well realized the outcome is exquisite.Some people really, really like the taste of butter. ---------------- It's a nice metaphor for those that are used to things resolving the "same way every time", but it says nothing to those that aren't listening for it... ... a 4-3 and a 7-1 are only realized in context, but who's counting? ...and Yes, consuelo, I'd like fries with that!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Some people really, really like the taste of butter
Because butter makes other things go down more easily
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Back to the alphabet.
Et:
What I like about one of the usual ways of reciting and singing the alphabet is it takes off with a bang, like a shot into the air, but it slows down dramatically at the end, like a slowly falling leaf, to mix metaphors. I wouldn't say the alphabet exactly as you wrote it above. In order to show the slow down, I'd show it slightly differently:
a_b_c_d_e_f_g___
h_i_j_k_
lmnop___
q_r_s___
t_u_v___
w._x_
y___
z___
Or:
abcdefg_
hijk[lmno]p
qrs
tuv
w
x
y
z
(and the [lmno]in brackets to show compressed time)
So, even though not symmetrical, it's finally satisfying dramatically--quick pace at the upper end settles down at the end.
Heart beat: auditory training.
Well, yeah. But there's also the beat of the feet that is implanted deeply in our psyches when we walk--and the quickened tempo that's implanted, too, when we run. And the distinctive galloping and skipping rhythms (both distinct from each other, by the way--have you ever noticed?)...and so on. Being bipeds, we have all kinds of rhythms deeply embedded inside us from childhood on. Even crawling must have embedded something musical inside us. Bach used to compose inside his head by walking many miles to organ recitals. He'd set his lines to match his pace. We are natural metronomes and we can change our tempo at will.
If you're interested in how strongly connected are the body and music, take a look into the Delcroze method. Jacqueline Du Pré's mother, a highly accomplished pianist, was also an instructor in the method which provides many bridges between dance, movement, kinesthetics and music. And Du Pré's mother provided Delcroze training for both Jackie and her sister when they were young.
So, it's the heart, yes. But it's more than the heart. It's our feet and our arms and our fingers and even our toes. It may be the blink of our eyes, too. The heart is that persistent ostinato, its tempo influenced by our physical and emotional reactions. But we carry other constant music makers around with everything we do--if we have ears to hear.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
abcdefg_
hijk[lmno]p
qrs
tuv
w
x
y
z
...if we have ears to hear.I ain't gonna start with 'hearing -vs- listening' [yet again] but, I *know it as: abcdefg_ hijk[lmno]p qrstu_v_ w x y and z ww - I'd really have to *insist that " If you're interested in how strongly connected are the body and music..." try performing some.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,372
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
889
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
