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tsuwm Offline OP
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>I found several sites that gave... as the definition.

this is potentially too germane a topic to leave lying doggo in an obscure word thread, in that it speaks to the whole issue of what makes it into the English lexicon as delimited by OED, W3, et al.

OED2 is loaded with obsolete words, nonce-words, and even words for which there is no other extant recorded evidence other than inclusion in some other old, obscure dictionary. In light of this historical (in the extreme) nature of OED, I asked the current U.S. editor if we should expect to see (for instance) Menckenisms such as 'bootician' and 'ombibulous' in the forthcoming OED3.

Jesse Sheidlower's reply:

In general, for a word to be included, we'd need some indication of wider use. For Menckenisms, _ecdysiast_ and _booboisie_ are both coinages that successfully made it into broader currency and will be included. The two you mention seem not to have done so, though we do have some examples from Mencken.

not content to let the matter drop, I pushed on:

Okay, this puzzles me a bit. I have had it pounded into my head that the OED is (or was) descriptivist and historical in nature. OED2 is loaded with nonce words from all sorts of obscure writers (Lytton leaps to mind)--so either things have changed, or Mencken is chopped liver, which?

Jesse's reply:

Well, a few things, including that Lytton was not an obscure writer when the OED was first being edited, and that our standards have changed so that we'd be much less likely to include a nonce-word now. But there can be a lot of reasons why one would include one--for example, the word is the sole example of a particular part of speech, but other parts of speech exist and the nonce example supports or sheds light on it in an interesting way.
[E.A.]


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tsuwm Offline OP
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as things now stand, inclusion in the important lexicons depends upon evidence in print. surely this will change with the proliferation of the WoaML. I should ask Jesse about this..


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What is their policy on words that are trade-marked but are in common usage anyway, words such as xerox, scotch tape and google?


#85173 10/30/02 09:00 PM
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tsuwm Offline OP
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trademarks, when they are commonly used as if they were ordinary, generic terms, exist in a kind of never-never-land. to the lexicographer, the word has become generic and should be included in the dictionary and defined.

here's the OED2 entry for Xerox
[Invented word f. XERO(GRAPHY.]
n. A proprietary name for photocopiers (see quots. 1952, 1953); also used loosely (attrib. and absol.) to denote any photocopy.
v. [f. prec.] trans. To reproduce by xerography; to photocopy.




#85174 10/30/02 09:21 PM
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that is interesting, as former xeroid (what we called our self, but corporate hated the name), i remember being told the word came from xero (greek for dry) graphy (writing) -- since xerox machine were replacing 'wet' copiers. Xerox was made up, with xerography in mind...

never really looked up xero to see if it did mean dry i am surprized OED didn't have a comment.. (but maybe it does under the word xerography.)


#85175 10/30/02 09:27 PM
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tsuwm Offline OP
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well yeah, if you track back >xerography>xero-
before a vowel xer-, repr. Gr. combining form of xeros dry, occurring in several scientific and technical terms.


#85176 10/30/02 09:46 PM
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Yes; the water company in Austin, TX, gives you a break on your bill if you xeriscape your yard.


#85177 10/31/02 12:29 AM
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We need google as a verb because that's what millions of people do: They google. Google is straight and to-the-point. It would take a lot more words and letters to describe what we do when we google than the simple word "google." And, besides, once google began to appear in dictionaries and most especially on vocabulary tests, mebbe more kids would be encouraged to google topics themselves. Well, maybe not. Whenever I tell my elementary school kids that I've googled some topic of interest, they know exactly what I'm talking about because they google.

I'd like to see somebody come up with a pithier verb than "google" that would cover as much territory in describing the same action. Tell that OED guy to take that challenge in his pipe and smoke it.


#85178 10/31/02 02:41 PM
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Consider this. Nonce words are frequently generated, used for a while by a particular community, amd are then dropped from usage. To that extent, the attitude of the OED editors makes sense. "Google" as a verb is (a) very new and (b) not yet in "general" usage. Therefore, it wouldn't be considered for inclusion by the OED until some undetermined time in the future when it has stood their test of time (however long that may be).



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#85179 10/31/02 03:52 PM
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used for a while by a particular community, amd are then dropped from usage.

Google will become a dictionary word not before Google™ ceases to be the search engine of choice and even then only if google remains the word of choice.


#85180 10/31/02 05:16 PM
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tsuwm Offline OP
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and here's what Jesse has to say generally about "web words":

We wouldn't put [one] in using only Web citations, but anything that has a reasonable currency on the Web will also be found in more traditional print sources, including _to google._ In certain circumstances we can cite certain sources from the Web, if it's necessary to establish usage, but we prefer not to.

in other words, things haven't changed significantly from the "can it be found widely in print" test.


#85181 11/01/02 09:23 PM
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surely this will change with the proliferation of the WoaML

Okay, I'll bite. Please expand "WoaML"?

Edit: Got it. "Search" is indeed a useful tool.
See http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=weeklythemes&Number=84663
for enlightenment, as I finally did...

#85182 11/11/02 01:56 AM
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web words

So then google would have to take on, and then be used relatively frequently with, a more generic meaning for search before they'll consider listing it, as in "google the dictionary for the meaning" or "they were googling the woods for the legendary beast"?


#85183 11/11/02 02:59 AM
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tsuwm Offline OP
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>So then google would have to take on, and then be used relatively frequently with, a more generic meaning for search before they'll consider listing it...

not at all. if it becomes a standard in written use, but only suggests a specific use (as a specific tool), then it lies in that grey area that depends probably on the persistence of the tool; if OTOH it becomes widely accepted in referring to *any web search, there is little doubt of dictionary inclusion.


#85184 11/11/02 11:13 AM
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widely accepted in referring to *any web search

As in:

I googled "wlonc" with Lycos and I got 155 hits; when I googled it with Google I got 187.


#85185 11/12/02 09:26 PM
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when I googled it with Google I got 187

I got 270.


#85186 11/12/02 09:32 PM
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tsuwm Offline OP
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192... I guess there's another sense of google we need to capture.


#85187 11/12/02 10:57 PM
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"Googling google,
With my goo-goo-googley eyes!"

Well, I just googled google and got 12,400,000 hits!...sooooo?


#85188 11/12/02 11:02 PM
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And here's a picture of Google! (Scroll down, bottom right)

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/goatphotos.html

And another:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2D715E62


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tsuwm Offline OP
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here's another recent addition to OED..

dotcom, n. NEW EDITION:
draft entry June 2001
Computing.


1. An Internet address for a commercial site expressed in terms of the formulaic suffix .com; a web site with such an address.



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What happened to the original definition of google? It's a mathematical term for the quantity 1, followd by a hundred zeros. And a 'googleplex' is a 1 followed by a google of zeros.


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What happened to the original definition of google?

I think they had that in mind, suggesting the large base that they would search for you. They probably even respelled it (the math(s) term is googol) in case it was copyrighted.


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