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#75 - 03/14/00 08:22 PM Thanks, Anu
JimDanner Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/14/00
Posts: 1
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Anu,

Thank you!

I eagerly look for my AWAD when I return home from work each day. It's a great way to wind up the day. And a great cause of concern when the gremlins delay it. Again, thank you for brightening each of our days.

Jim


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#76 - 05/20/00 07:23 AM Re: Thanks, Anu
pgrew Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/20/00
Posts: 8
Loc: Milan, Italy
I want to add my voice to Jim's. Yes, Anu, thank you for brightening each day of each of us.
ciao,
- ph


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#77 - 11/10/00 11:25 AM Agnosticism
Father Steve Offline
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Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 2788
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
There is no Anu! Proof? No answer to your post.

[Kindly disregard the man behind the curtain.]




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#78 - 11/10/00 01:05 PM Re: Agnosticism
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Welcome, JimDandy (!) and pgrew.

Yes, Virginia, there is an Anu. You'll have to trust me on this one. And I do "worship" him!


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#79 - 11/10/00 01:49 PM Eureka
xara Offline
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Registered: 10/09/00
Posts: 197
Loc: cary, nc, usa
I've got it. Jackie is Anu! (Anu is Jackie?) Obviously Jackie feels as though she knows Anu personally. We're all aware of Anu's enduring silence. Jackie and Anu must be cohorts. But in light of Anu's elusive nature, how could this be?!? Therefore, Jackie and Anu must be one in the same!


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#80 - 11/10/00 02:53 PM Re: Eureka
Jackie Offline

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I have to say, that is much better than the last person I was accused of being! I only wish I were even half as knowledgeable and talented as these guys.


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#81 - 11/10/00 11:23 PM Re: Agnosticism
Father Steve Offline
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Posts: 2788
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
The Wizard: Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
~L. Frank Baum, "The Wizard of Oz" (1939)




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#82 - 11/14/00 05:24 AM Re: Agnosticism
RhubarbCommando Offline
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Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
There is no Anu!

Then someone has invented one!





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#83 - 11/14/00 08:32 AM Re: Agnosticism
maverick Offline
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invented one!

In the beginning there was AWAD...


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#84 - 11/14/00 12:30 PM Re: doppelgänger
AnnaStrophic Offline
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xara says: Therefore, Jackie and Anu must be one in the same!

I've never heard this usage. I'd say, "one and the same." Any dialectical [sic], etymological comments out there?


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#85 - 11/14/00 01:24 PM Re: doppelgänger
xara Offline
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Posts: 197
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I'd say, "one and the same."

mea culpa.

I don't remember ever seeing it written. I have difficulty hearing distinctions in words such as "in" and "and." (because both I don't hear well, and southerners often pronounce "and" as "un") I'm not confident whether the phrase that I've heard spoken was "one and the same" or "one in the same."


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#86 - 11/14/00 03:33 PM Re: doppelgänger
AnnaStrophic Offline
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I can't recall ever seeing the phrase written, either, xara, which is why I was asking. And while I don't expect to see a post from Anu (aka the man behind the curtain), perhaps one of our resident pundits will clear up the term for us, even if the Anu-Jackie relationship continues a mystery .


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#87 - 11/14/00 03:42 PM Re: doppelgänger
of troy Offline
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I've only heard one and the same.

but Xara, i admire your courage! This is a scary place sometimes. its not the the posters are mean or meanspirited,(rather the opposite mostly) but, they have such eagle eyes, and pick up each nuance! and then they put their wits to work and you watch the word fly! I have learned so much here!





_________________________
my other obsession

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#88 - 11/14/00 07:44 PM One = Same
Father Steve Offline
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Phrase Finder has it "one and the same."

See http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/index/html

PS: Look, Jackie, I made a link!!



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#89 - 11/14/00 08:41 PM Re: One = Same
Jackie Offline

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PS: Look, Jackie, I made a link!!

You sure did! Hallelujah! (For-rr, the Lord God omni-
po-tent reig-neth!) (That was for you, Anna! And, I am quite sure that Anu would be utterly bumfuzzled at the idea that he and I have a relationship.)


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#90 - 11/14/00 09:31 PM bumfuzzled
Father Steve Offline
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Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
bum·fuz·zle (bmfzl)

v. tr. bum·fuz·zled, bum·fuz·zling, bum·fuz·zles. Chiefly Southern U.S.

To confuse.

[Probably bum- (probably alteration of bamboozle) + fuzzle (perhaps blend of fuddle) and fuzzy.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition
Copyright © 1996, 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



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#91 - 11/14/00 11:28 PM Re: One = Same
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Hallelujah! (For-rr, the Lord God omni-
po-tent reig-neth!)


Thanks, Jackie - Messiah is my second favourite piece of music, after Beethoven's Ninth. The only "problem" is that now I can't get "He trusted in God" out of my head. The rest of you should all sing Hallelujah in praise of your inability to hear me!


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#92 - 11/15/00 07:07 AM Re: Handel
AnnaStrophic Offline
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I, too, thank you for the reference, Jackie. Max, Messiah is my favorite piece, followed by Beethoven's Ninth. Händel is the only guy I know who could take a word like "iniquity" and make it beautiful.


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#93 - 11/15/00 10:16 AM Re: Handel
tsuwm Offline
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I can't fault you guys for your taste in choral masterpieces, but does anyone else get Orff on "Carmina Burana"?


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#94 - 11/15/00 10:49 AM Re: Handel
shanks Offline
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Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
does anyone else get Orff on "Carmina Burana"?

Only in the Old Spice commercials.

the sunshine (a philistine and proud of it) warrior


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#95 - 11/15/00 11:05 AM Re: Handel
tsuwm Offline
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>(a philistine and proud of it)

...but only in regards to choral masterpieces, right?


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#96 - 11/15/00 11:21 AM Re: Handel
FishonaBike Offline
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Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 1346
Loc: Sussex, England
Messiah is my favorite piece

I must say that Rick Wakeman's live solo rendition of the Hallelujah chorus on keyboard is an unarguable all-time great.

Almost as good as the Old Spice commercial!


Fish (another Philistine and proud) on (despite once singing the Messiah with massed voices and instruments) a (Prog Rock rools!) Bike




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#97 - 11/15/00 02:36 PM Re: Handel
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Händel is the only guy I know who could take a word like "iniquity" and make it beautiful.

Your careful use of ä raised an interesting question in my mind. Does anybody know whether GFH, being the devout Anglophile that he was, ever officially anglicised his name? During my teens, I had an intense love affair with the German language, and so invariably called him Georg Friedrich Händel. I have seen several CDs, from reputable labels, in which his name has been completely anglicised. Given that most CDs I see of Tschaikovsky's music now call him Pyotr, I wondered if GF had officially changed his name.



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#98 - 11/15/00 08:58 PM Re: Handel
Jackie Offline

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Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Max--

I found this in the Oxford English Reference Dictionary,
in tsuwm's x-refer site:

Handel, George Frederick (born Georg Friedrich Händel) (1685 - 1759)

German-born composer, resident in England from 1712.




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#99 - 11/15/00 09:03 PM Re: Handel
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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I found this in the Oxford English Reference Dictionary,
in tsuwm's x-refer site:
Handel, George Frederick (born Georg Friedrich Händel) (1685 - 1759)


Danke vielmals.



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#100 - 11/15/00 09:07 PM Re: Handel
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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In reply to:

does anyone else get Orff on "Carmina Burana"?

Only in the Old Spice commercials.


I once saw a German comedian (his intro was "I am the first German comic. Ever") give Carmina Burana the "Curry Rhapsody" treatment - I laughed until I could hardly breathe. He was parodying the fact that few people have any idea what the words are, as they hum to that incredibly catchy tune.




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#101 - 11/16/00 04:44 AM The whole shooting match
shanks Offline
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Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
For some reason classical music leaves me cold. I've been waiting and waiting to become an old duffer so I can finally see the point of Opera, but it just hasn't happened.

Prog rock for me too, Fisk! (Though Wakeman? Yes? Yuk. Genesis and Jethro Tull the only ones worth listening to. With a word of encouragement for Supertramp...)


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#102 - 11/24/00 02:45 AM Re: The whole shooting match
lusy Offline
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Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 140
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
For some reason classical music leaves me cold.

Well. I guess that's your problem Shanks, but why would you cut yourself off from a whole new experience. Try a little harder, maybe? The classical drag is not all that bad though some of it certainly is, I have to admit.

And Jethro who? (Joke )

looty


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#103 - 11/24/00 03:03 AM Therein lies the rub...
shanks Offline
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Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Well. I guess that's your problem Shanks, but why would you cut yourself off from a whole new experience. Try a little harder, maybe?

Haven't cut myself off. Have 'tried' it time and again, but realised that, if it wasn't 'speaking to my soul', as it were, then my trying it was like the man, his son and the donkey - doing things for fear of the disapprobation of others.

[rant]
Perhaps classical music isn't really that good. Perhaps it is oversold by those who are glad to belong to an elitist coterie, by those who love the trivia involved, by those who love the hard work and study involved, and by those who grew up with nothing else so they have no ear for any of the other forms. Yes, we can argue until Hell warms up about what makes for great art, or a great art form, but there isn't much advantage to either side, IMO. I'm through with 'trying' classical, or jazz, simply because people tell me if I try it hard enough and for long enough, some of it may stick. Sorry guys, but I've got a life.
[/rant]

I'm sure, in time, that some of it will stick anyway. But I'm willing to wait instead of forcing the issue. In the meantime, I can hum along to the Bee Gees version of Beethoven's 5th, or the Hindi music plagiarisation of Mozart's 40th, and constantly break into the March of the Toreadors (full on Mondegreen!)

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#104 - 11/24/00 03:53 AM Re: Therein lies the rub...
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Posts: 3409
In reply to:

Have 'tried' it time and again, but realised that, if it wasn't 'speaking to my soul', as it were, then my trying it was like the man, his son and the donkey - doing things for fear of the disapprobation of others.


Hear, hear! While I am a fan of classical music, I share your sentiments. Indeed, I echo them when pressed for an explanation of my not having read certain "obligatory" classics - what classical music is for you, Dickens is for me. (I shall now duck for cover)



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#105 - 11/24/00 04:55 AM What's that game...
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
In which you try to name a classic you haven't read, and score points for each of the others who has read it? Before I read them, Hamlet and Lear were guaranteed maximum points for me at college parties. But then, some of my friends had easy scores with the likes of Catcher in the rye and Oliver Twist. At least I can still score with War and Peace, Nicholas Nickleby and Mansfield Park!

I wouldn't worry too much about the Dickens though. I enjoy his stuff from time to time, but not to the point of reading every one...

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#106 - 11/24/00 05:20 AM Classic!
FishonaBike Offline
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Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 1346
Loc: Sussex, England
doing things for fear of the disapprobation of others

Hear, hear, hear!

Very clearly it's wrong to "do" alleged classics (of whatever art form) just because you feel you have to do so.

On the other hand, it can be throwing the baby out with the bath-water to take a "tried it, didn't like it" approach.
The classical composers, for instance, were the rock stars of their day, and sometimes that can be strikingly obvious
(Beethoven - nuff said).

Most importantly, it seems to me there are some classics that can't fail to move you, especially in an appropriate context. That's almost the true definition of 'classic'.

In which case IMHO (underline that) Bohemian Rhapsody sits side-by-side with the Toccata, Jerusalem, the Moonlight Sonata (3rd movement's great!), Schubert's 'Unfinished' Symphony (8?) and The Moldau, just for a few off the top of me head.

Obviously I could pick loads more for the 'recent classics', including some good ol' prog rock, but the list would be very large. And endless.


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#107 - 11/24/00 05:26 AM Zigackly
shanks Offline
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Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
I think your interpretation of what makes a classic is well nigh ferpick. But...

I am not sure that a classic is infallible in its ability to move you - though this might depend upon what you mean by an appropriate 'context'. If I have no ability to appreciate either Chinese, or North Indian classical music, is my context wrong? Or is it that, not having been exposed to them whilst growing up, I have no sub-conscious recognition of the forms at all - there is no lock in my head for which those memes have the key? But if that is the case, then why cannot the same apply to Western classical music?

I think this discussion/debate/argument can go round and round and....


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#108 - 11/24/00 06:34 AM Re: Zigackly
FishonaBike Offline
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I am not sure that a classic is infallible in its ability to move you

Ah yes, there is the rub, shanks!

My mentioning appropriate context was sufficiently wooly, but...

I think you can only talk of a 'classic' within a particular cultural context. If you've had no exposure to that culture, and the culture is sufficiently dissimilar to your own, it's difficult to appreciate the work, and it may fail to move you. However, you can acquire a taste for diffent cultures, and you can learn how to appreciate their works. Something that starts out fairly intellectual (though usually driven by a genuine enthusiasm and willingness to learn) can evolve into genuine appreciation.

Most people within a given culture will be moved by that culture's classics. But not all of them will be moved by all the classics all the time - that's just human nature.

There's some kind of relation to teaching classics here. If I hadn't been more or less forced to learn Shakespeare at school, would I appreciate the Bard's works as much as I do now? I'd definitely never have made the effort to read Chaucer, and that would have been a loss. I'm very grateful now for almost everything I disliked learning at school, much as I hate to admit it!

Learning appreciation, acquiring tastes, hmmm.

Yep, round and round....





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#109 - 11/24/00 06:38 AM Re: Zigackly
wsieber Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1026
Loc: Switzerland
De gustibus non est disputandum. - Ite, missa est.


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#110 - 11/24/00 07:22 AM Opera is just grand!
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
Haven't cut myself off. Have 'tried' it time and again,
Shanks - its a bit of a sauce for me to come in so late on this one, but I've only just started to ketchup.

I also felt like this about opera at one time - occasional arias were OK, but listening to the whole thing turned me off very quickly - then I went and saw an opera (I believe it was La Boheme - a suitably hackneyed theme, beautifully treated by Puccini.)
Have you actually been to see Opera, or just tried listening to records or concert versions? If you have, then I will accept your self-judgement that "It ain't for you." But if not, I insist that you must go and actually sit in the theatre and see the action as well as absorb the music. Opera is, above all, a visual thing and without the use of your visual senses, the auditory ones can feel the lack. Once you've seen and enjoyed the opera, you can listen to it on record and still get the echo of the whole experience, but it still isn't as good as the real thing.


If you will do this, I will come with you, and the next day I will join you, Shona and Jo at the Regal, Southall !!



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#111 - 11/24/00 08:32 AM Re: Opera is just grand!
FishonaBike Offline
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Loc: Sussex, England
If you will do this, I will come with you, and the next day I will join you, Shona and Jo at the Regal, Southall !!

Now there's a cross-cultural experience, indeed!

Have to confess that I loathe opera, but that is on the basis of listening alone, and there has been the odd exception.

I've seen Die Fleidermaus live, and enjoyed it immensely. But I believe that's classed as 'operetta'.

I like most operetta, I think, even by listening alone.The Student Prince (Mario Lanza) is brilliant. But with a song called "Drink, Drink, Drink" that's not surprising.





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#112 - 11/24/00 09:06 AM Latin culture
FishonaBike Offline
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De gustibus non est disputandum. - Ite, missa est

I suddenly empathise with the Beast with Two Heads (Aenigma/Babelfish)!

Having referenced Rhub's Latin Babelfish
(http://perseus.csad.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/resolveform?display=&lang=la for those who have forgotten) the best I can come up with is:

Tastings are not explained - Go, the mass is!

I might accept these words as Jon Anderson lyrics (we're back to prog rock and Yes again), but coming from you, wsieb, I suspect I've lost the message in the medium.




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#113 - 11/24/00 09:54 AM Re: Latin culture
tsuwm Offline
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Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
there is no disputing [with] taste, shona; go, the mass is ended.


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#114 - 11/24/00 09:56 AM Re: Opera is just grand!
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Rhuby

Do you mean to say you might actually confess your sex to Jo? (Or is this an old tale?)

I have never been to an opera, I will admit. And I will also admit to being a bit of a reductionist in all this - inasmuch as I rarely see the whole as being greater than the sum of the parts when it comes to most art forms. Opera has always, therefore, appeared to me to be a particularly bastard form of entertainment (the agony of listening to the human voice converted into a mere musical instrument, when the entire world of language is perverted by that, is bad enough, let alone its other sins), and in trawling through the other genres that combine to form opera I have discovered that they do not impress me: the musical; the ballet (well…. dance as high art rather than entertainment is always going to find only a limited audience); the song (well actually I am very impressed by good songs, but I'm not sure that opera has any); the theatre (more often than not seeming slipshod compared with film, though certain performances can be breathtakingly good and better than anything the recorded media can provide); and so on.

I have been left, therefore, with the conclusion that I am unlikely to enjoy opera in the performance - but I'm willing to try it anyway. (And no, I won't be grumpy about it - I'm sure I'll find much to enjoy, I just don't know if it will be the opera 'idea'…)

And, of course, anything to bring you down to ol' Smoky…

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#115 - 11/24/00 10:38 AM Re: Opera is just grand!
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
Aaaahhhhhhhh !! Where to begin!! Opera hasn't any good songs !!! (splutter, splutterrrrr) A bastard form of entertainment !*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Combining drama with song doesn't make it a bastard. A cross breed, possibly - but mongrels are usually stronger and more robust than the pure bred. The best of opera combines the strengths of both media of entertainment - the worst of opera tends not to survive, naturally enough.

As for good songs, well! Carmen is packed with them - at least five first class songs in there; Don Giovanni has at least two; Marriage of Figaro - Cherabino's aria is superlatively excellent, has always been on my list for the desert island - and there are a couple of other good ones in there. Aida - - I won't go on - most (not all!) of the repertoire has at least one good song in it.
But, really, the existence of good songs in opera avoids the point - they tend to support each other and build up a background feeling of whatever emotion the composer is trying to evoke, where even the lesser songs have a contextural integrity that help to carry you along in your suspended disbelief - which is the essence of all theatre, of course.

the ballet (well…. dance as high art rather than entertainment is always going to find only a limited audience);
One of the problems that beset both opera and ballet is the belief that it is "high art." It is entertainment. It was so written and performed, and it is so received in civilized countries like Italy, where opera, particularly, is not the exclusive property of the intelligentsia (I hope Emanuela will correct me if I've got this wrong!)
[end rant]

And the proposed trip is one of the few that actually would tempt me to come back down to The Smoke again (although when I lived there, we talked of going up to the Smoke from Hounslow, for goodness sake! But it was Middlesex in those days.) Even at the expense of shocking Jo with the knowledge that I have a beard on my chin as well as high heels on my feet!



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#116 - 11/24/00 10:49 AM Re: Opera is just grand!
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Oh all right. Covent Garden here I come. (Will a panto do instead - now that's an art form I'm really interested in?)

But songs. Now I think you and I are going to get into a definitional disagreement here. For me a song is an inseperable conjunction of words and music. 'Song without words' is meaningless to me, as is the notion of a lyric that can be set to any music ("pick a score, pick any score").

By that token, from all I've heard of opera (and unless you know the original language, you must rely upon translations), the songs are genuinely awful - though you may want to present us with an example of operatic lyrics that are not embarrassing. If you can do so, I will drop my case. If you can produce an operatic lyric that is comparable with that of "Won't get fooled again" or "My way" or even "Blowin' in the wind", I will buy the ruddy CDs or whatever and immerse myself in the stuff. But without such proof (and I am granting the quality of the music alone beforehand), you are not going to convince me that what happens in operas can even be called songs, let alone good ones.

cheer

the sunshine warrior

ps. Are the high heels because you're not very tall?


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#117 - 11/24/00 10:59 AM Re: Latin culture
FishonaBike Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 1346
Loc: Sussex, England
there is no disputing [with] taste, shona; go, the mass is ended.

Thanks, tsuwm. Two things threw me - the fact that the Latin dictionary/translator didn't provide "dispute" as a possible meaning of disputandum [investigated, explained, discussed..], and the fact that there isn't a verb for "ended". Is that common practice in (New) Latin?

Oh, and thanks, wsieb. I'm afraid you'll need to change the holy water now, though, sorry.




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#118 - 11/24/00 11:06 AM Re: Opera is just grand!
FishonaBike Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/11/00
Posts: 1346
Loc: Sussex, England
a beard on my chin as well as high heels on my feet!
Will a panto do instead?


Sounds to me like Rhub is going to be the panto, shanks!

"There is nothing like a dame, nothing in the world..."

BEHIND YOU!




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#119 - 11/24/00 11:21 AM Re: Opera is just grand!
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
operatic lyrics that are not embarrassing

I will freely admit, that I pay scant attention to the actual words of songs - whether in opera or any other form - it is only occasionally theat the words of any of them are really good - and those are so often the ones with dreadful music! You cite Blowin' in the wind - the words to which are fairly tellin' - but the music is banal in the extreme! I much prefer to hear opera in its original language, even though I don't understand a word of it - to be quite honest, singing distorts the words so much, for the most part, that the words are rarely discernible my ear - I tend to regard the voice as a particularly sensitive and flexible musical instrument, far more expressive than most other instruments, and therefore enjoy the sound. As Humpty Dumpty rightly said, "Take care of the Sounds and the Sense will take care of itself."


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