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#70161 - 05/16/02 05:27 PM Post deleted by ewein
ewein Offline
member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 184
Loc: USA

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#70162 - 05/16/02 06:00 PM Re: short of breath
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Everybody gets short of breath when they exercise vigorously. But when severe shortness of breath occurs with only mild exertion, it has to be investigated. And of course, shortness of breath at rest requires treatment. Dyspnea just means shortness of breath, but it is a medical word ordinarily used to indicate there is an abnormal condition.


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#70163 - 05/16/02 06:23 PM Re: short of breath
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
And when dyspnea worsens, it would lead into agonal breathing eventually, right, Bill?


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#70164 - 05/16/02 06:38 PM Re: short of breath
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
The last quack of the duck. Sometimes after an extended period of apnea (no breathing) there is one last gasp that is the brain center saying "I quit."


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#70165 - 05/16/02 06:55 PM Re: short of breath
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
Now I'm really confused!!!!

Dyspnea...>Agonal Breathing....>Apnea.....>Last Quack......Dead Duck???

Can I pass the med exam now, Bill?

Best regards,
Wordwinded


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#70166 - 05/16/02 07:04 PM Re: short of breath
AphonicRants Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 200
For all you medical people out there: would "short of breath" be abbreviated, in medical records, in the manner I casually suspect?

"Patient was SOB"


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#70167 - 05/16/02 08:11 PM Re: short of breath
doc_comfort Offline
addict

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 618
Loc: Australia
Shortness of breath is usually abbreviated to SoB - note the lower case 'o'. Generally, a patient will complain of being "short of breath", but will be described by staff as being "dyspnoeic", but as Dr Bill says, they're pretty much the same thing. Breathless(ness) is used whenever it sounds better than short of breath. The main difference is that consultants use "dyspnoea" and the junior medical staff use SoB.

Oh, and I've never heard of agonal breathing.


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#70168 - 05/16/02 08:45 PM Re: short of breath
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
I found five sites that mentioned "agonal breathing", but only one of them appeared worth quoting. In a Stanford University statement on handling of dying medical experiment animals, It used "agonal breathing" as a criterion of the moribund condition.



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#70169 - 05/17/02 03:18 AM Re: short of breath
zootsuit Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 45
Loc: perth, western australia
At Vet School we were taught the term agonal breathing, and when animals are euthenased via barbiturate OD they often exhibit these agonal gasps. Very distressing for the owner to witness, so I always gently warned them that it may occur before doing the deed.



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#70170 - 05/17/02 05:57 AM Re: agonal breathing
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
I found a baby squirrel after a wind storm. It looked like a little rat. I bought a doll's baby bottle, filled it with some kind of liquid nutrition, and tried to nurse the tiny squirrel back to health. But I hadn't been trained in taking care of wild animals, and such training would have probably saved the little squirrel.

But, Lord, I bonded with that tiny creature. Kept it going for two days. My mistake was I aspirated its lungs unknowingly. On the morning it died, I noticed it was breathing in tiny, strong, abbreviated gasps.

I called my school, left a message I'd be late, and rushed the squirrel over to the emergency vet downtown Richmond. 6:30 in the morning. The vet took it from its basket, examined it, and said, "This little squirrel is in agonal breathing." "What does that mean?" I asked. "It means the little squirrel is trying to die. You can either let it die trying to breathe, or I can put it down." Well, that was my little baby and I didn't want it to suffer, so I asked her to put it down. $79 for an emergency shot of permanent slumber.

My Uncle John, upon hearing the tale, said, "I would have drowned it before I spent 79 dollars!"

Only a mother would understand. (Yeah, guys can be mothers, too. I know...I know.)

Beast regards,
WW

PS: So, agonal breathing is a term used just for the beasts?


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#70171 - 05/17/02 09:47 AM Re: agonal breathing
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
In the case of Romeo and Juliet it was diagonal breathing.


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#70172 - 05/17/02 10:12 AM Re: diagonal breathing
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
In the case of Romeo and Juliet it was diagonal breathing.

Ha!!!!!!!!!! Very clever, though it falls apart since Romeo and Juliet weren't beasts--if, that is, agonal breathing is limited to last breaths of the beasts.


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#70173 - 05/17/02 10:24 AM Re: diagonal breathing
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Dear WW: Although as doc_comfort said, the term "agonal" breathing is seldom heard in hospitals, it occurs routinely but so often it is not recorded on chart.


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#70174 - 05/17/02 11:15 AM Re: diagonal breathing
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
Actually, wwh, Doc Comfort wrote:

Oh, and I've never heard of agonal breathing.


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#70175 - 05/17/02 11:52 AM Re: diagonal breathing
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Dear WW: As I said, it is so routine it does not cause comment. I just had a thought. I said it was the brain center that caused it. I now think it is result of spinal centers being released from central control. I wonder if doc_comfort would think that a possible explanation.

With regard to spinal centers being actve after being released from control of brain, remember how a chicken's legs thrash for severa seconds after its head is chopped off.


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#70176 - 05/17/02 01:39 PM Post deleted by ewein
ewein Offline
member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 184
Loc: USA

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#70177 - 05/17/02 01:55 PM Re: diagonal breathing
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
Dear wwh,

Hate to be so disagreeable with you today, but a chicken's legs don't just thrash around. The whole bloody creature runs around. I've seen 'em. My granny used to chop their heads off--to my horror--and I'd sit there in the chicken yard watching this headless chicken run around till it slowed down and fell over. Absolutely horrifying to a small child.

'est 'egards,
'ord'ind That's my over and out with each of their heads chopped off


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#70178 - 05/17/02 02:00 PM Re: diagonal breathing
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Dear WW: at age six, after I had chopped chicken's head off, and it had proved its brain wasn't total source of leg movements, then I had to dip it in hot water, and pluck it. I minded that far worse than beheading it.

Come to think of it, "dehead" sounds more logical than "behead"

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#70179 - 05/17/02 02:01 PM Re: headless chickens
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
True enough, WW. Not that I've ever seen such a phenomenon, or want to, but the Southern expression "running around like a chicken with its head cut off" has to have come from somewhere.


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#70180 - 05/17/02 02:19 PM Re: diagonal breathing
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
You wrote, Bill:

Dear WW: at age six, after I had chopped chicken's head off, and it had proved its brain
wasn't total source of leg movements, then I had to dip it in hot water, and pluck it.


This goes to prove that them that goes into medicine is different from them that doesn't. At bloody six years of age you could chop a chicken's head off?????? I would have fainted if I'd been required to do so--I used to pass out at Loftan's nosebleeds, no joke, I am so sensitive to the sight of blood.

You were one tough little nut, you know? I'm still recovering from that photograph on the hamate site that showed the hole in the patient's hand where the hamate had been excised--feeling a little queasy right now remembering it...

Blood regards,
WordWoozy


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#70181 - 05/17/02 02:27 PM Post deleted by SilkMuse
SilkMuse Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 170

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#70182 - 05/17/02 04:01 PM Re: agonal breathing
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Dear WW: My mother didn't want any wimps in the family. And when she told me to do something, I did it.

Dear SM: The lungs don't to anything until the diaphragm and ribs move. And the diaphragm muscles and rib muscles are controlled by nerves coming from the spinal cord. Your vet was not speaking as he would have to another vet.


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#70183 - 05/17/02 06:34 PM Re: agonal breathing
of troy Offline
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Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
and continuing the anatomy lesson, re:The lungs don't to anything until the diaphragm and ribs move. And the diaphragm muscles and rib muscles are controlled by nerves coming from the spinal cord

breathing is controled by the base of the brain, sometime called the reptilian part (since it contains many of the same funtions that can be found in reptile brains.) and breathing is one of them.. you don't have to remember to breath, a small part of your brain does that for you.. and as higher functions (thought, image processing, etc) go, the only thing left is the reptilian part.. and you keep breathing. then as damaged lungs bring less air in, and damaged hearts move less blood, and damaged kidneys let toxins accumulated, and damage livers fail to clean out old and damaged red blood cells, less and less oxoginated blood gets to the brain, and it falters.. and finally fails to send the signal to the diaphragm to contract..

_________________________
my other obsession

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#70184 - 05/17/02 08:35 PM Re: agonal breathing
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Dear of troy: Reptiles can be amazing. When I was about ten, my father brought home a snapping turtle, with a shell the size of a manhole cover. He shot it to keep his bird dog from getting bitten. Bird dogs will in some cases point turtles. His full choke 12 ga. shotgun had made a hole in turtle's head the size of a baseball. But for over a week if you kicked the turtle's legs, they would retract.

Dear Hyla: If you have not already read it, you would enjoy "Eggs for Agassiz" written by a Middleboro school teacher long ago. He knew Agassiz was writing a book on turtle embryology, and desperately wanted some freshly laid snapping turtle eggs to study. He had quite an adventure getting them to Cambridge on time. The original article was in ATLANTIC. and is cited in the very short version to which URL is:

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1071.htm This is one of a series, all of which are very good reading.


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#70185 - 05/18/02 10:30 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409

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#70186 - 05/20/02 07:29 AM Re: chickens
Fiberbabe Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/12/01
Posts: 771
Loc: Portland, Oregon
At the risk of self-YARTing, I'll repost my link to http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org. He lived for 18 months after the ax blow that was designed to kill him only took off his head *above* the brain stem (which controls a chicken's reflex actions). He had to be fed by eyedropper, and they had to clear his esophagus periodically - but he seems to have been quite an attraction there for a while in the 40s.


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