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in the spirit of the Board's longstanding atmosphere of philopolemica, i offer a few of my favorite words describing arguments, arguers, and the like:
prolepsis - rendering an argument ineffective by anticipating and disarming it hi, W'ON
trichoschisticism - hair-splitting; arguing overly fine points
logicaster - a person pedantic in argument; a person whose logic is less valid than he thinks
choplogic - absurdly convoluted, sophistical, or illogical argumentation; glib and specious reasoning
and this last one, which i think may be a legal term (Sparteye?? can you elaborate?)
ex silentio - from silence: basing an argument on the lack or absence of evidence, data, firm proof, etc.
i'm not sure i understand the last ~ does this mean that the aggressor in the argument bases his/her argument on the fact that his/her opponent hasn't offered some sort of empirical proof?
~~~~~~~~
anyone care to add to the list? rhetorical terms are of course welcome =)
NOTE: all liability is specifically released by this poster; should anyone choose to use any of these terms while engaged in real life argumentation, specifically with one's spouse, they shall do so at their own risk.
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only days ago it seems, we had the thread on elizabethian insults, rememeber? take one word from column A, one from column B, and finish with a word from Column C.
Caradea is being a bit clever, but i think her efforts might serve to repullulate hard feelings.
Please feel free to respond, using any obsure, off beat, or interesting word you can thing off.
don't forget to check out WWFTD, or Peter Bowler's Supior Person's Book of Words, or your favorite reference.
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Dear of troy: I do not sense in caradea's post any hint that she wants to prolong the polemics. I see only a bid to have us learn to use properly the terms she has listed. I am in favor of that.
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Just came across choplogic this morning while reading the dictionary. Wasn't there a famous work entitled The Choplogigetics?
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one tool of a philopolemica(n)(?) might be battology--the continual reiteration of the same words or phrases
i am trying to stay in the spirit you sugget, Dr bill, but i am skittish, and fear this thread might lead to Jackie giving us a jobation
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on the nether side of argument we have eristical, from Eris the goddess of strife; and ipsedixitism, an arbitrary or dogmatic argument (or just call it argle-bargle); and paralogism, a piece of false or erroneous reasoning, an illogical argument.  ()
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paralogism, a piece of false or erroneous reasoning, an illogical argument.So, then, would Mr. Spock be incapable of entering into a paralogism, since he is incapable of being paralogistic? And does this make him a paralogiaphobe, or is this just a logical reaction due to the nature of his being? Or am I waxing paralogistical, myself, here? Answers, damn you! I want answers! "you" in the collective senseThe Only WO'N!
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caredea, you'll find an lovely list at this nicely-titled site: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htmFrom that site, on your question about appeal to ignorance (argumentum ex silentio): appealing to ignorance as evidence for something. (e.g., We have no evidence that God doesn't exist, therefore, he must exist.) Ignorance about something says nothing about its existence or non-existence.¹ In other words, argument ex silentio does not, as you'd surmised, mean requiring that arguments be supported by evidence. Quite the contrary: it means the attempt to support one's argument by the very absence of evidence. I particularly enjoyed bandwagon fallacy: concluding that an idea has merit simply because many people believe it or practice it. Simply because many people may believe something says nothing about the fact of that something. For example many people during the Black plague believed that demons caused disease.¹ Another site defines "argumentum ex silentio as an argument based on suppressing something", but this seems to me mistaken.
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Appeal to faithcaridea ;) - I am sure you will like this analysis: Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence.
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or, to expand a bit on your quote from the site, mav: Faith relies on a belief that does not rest on logic or evidence. Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence.
Reminds me of an old legal maxim advising how to argue:
When the law is on your side, pound on the law.
When the facts are on your side, pound on the facts.
When the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table.
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But let us not pound on the Board.
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"trichoschisticism - hair-splitting; arguing overly fine points"
Let us resolve to split no hairs with follicle in place on another member's scalp.
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Hello, first post here  . So far, I like it very much. Speaking as an avid reader, passionate writer, and longtime lover of words, I can say I am very happy to have found this place online.
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"Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence." Such as flamewars.
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You have flamewars here? Are the criticisms and insults well-written?
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Dear talltales: Tell us a couple, please. With many interesting words.
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Hmmm, well, here is one I worked on recently in collaboration with another writer (he's the roustabout type, more given to Kerouac overtones, I'm a mystery writer with pretentions toward a literary voice). We giggled over this long-distance for a few evenings, and produced the following gender-bender. We wanted to see how many twisteroos we could come up with, within one essay.
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I found myself in the company of a devil the other day. Oh, he showed no horns or cloven hooves or pointed tail, but he was a devil nonetheless.
He had disguised those stereotypical accoutrements and considered himself quite clever, but I saw through his facade, his glossy veneer, in a moment. It takes only a glance or the sound of the first few syllables they utter and with a little experience, you just know. They're amazingly transparent, not nearly as devilishly cunning as they like to flatter themselves as being.
It seems you just can't get any good quality demons these days. It's like they're just going through the motions, like they're not even trying anymore.
Sunday morning I was sitting in a coffee shop, about as deep into the Seattle Times as anyone could be, when he sidled up to me and, quite uninvited, plopped himself down just next to me. Annoyed at this invasion of my space and privacy, I tried to remain aloof and detached, but he would have none of it. Much to my dismay, I was about to be butt deep in yet another tedious social exchange.
He forced a smile, made some lackluster, predictable, cliched opening volley and the dance had begun. He ignored my noncommittal demeanor and without missing a beat or taking a breath, clawed at my attention with urgent insistence.
(I am so tired of wasting time having to deal with their negativity. That's all they are, you know, one big bundle of bad vibe, bring down, negative energy. They are obnoxious and depressing, but even worse than that, they are boring. They are heavy, deadly dull. They drain any delight, any charm, any positiveness right out of any situation. Therein lies their true evil, the tiresome little freaks.)
This one presented himself well, I must admit. He wore a short, black, pleated skirt that swirled around firm thighs in black nylons as he walked. His red satin blouse clung to and exposed a luscious set of full and succulent breasts that swayed gently and freely under the fabric.
His clear eyes flashed in the pale light of that rainy morning, but they were a steely blue and revealed a hardness that could not be disguised. They were embraced and enhanced by a shoulder length fall of copper colored hair.
He ordered a beer and a shot of well tequila and offered some weak excuse that it had been a hard night and he had to take his father somewhere for some kind of treatment.
He, of course, was an out of work professional and, of course, on medical leave for some sort of vague ailment. He paid for his drinks with a fist full of Susan B. Anthony dollars that he said he had gotten in change at the Post Office, of all places. Once again, just not even trying here. He told me and repeated several times what a private person he was as I was subjected to the uncondensed version of his autobiography right down to the peccadilloes of his surfer dude son in San Diego and the details of his hysterectomy at which point he assured me that he didn't have to worry about getting pregnant.
All the moves were there, opening his legs and resting his knee up against me, brushing his breasts along my arm as he took it and held it to punctuate a laugh to a feeble joke.
He had the patter down as well, but the guise of a slightly aging, neurotic, alcoholic tart still trolling and trading on her charms was wearing thin and old to the point of being insulting. This demon just didn't care anymore.
How are you going to walk on my soul? How are you going to suck me dry? How are you going to even sucker me out of a few drinks if you don't at least make a reasonable effort? Where's the imagination? Has hell become nothing more than a mill churning out hacks? Even good, down-home evil can be respected and appreciated when it's done with a little flair and style.
He went on and on. There was nothing new or fun or exciting or, in any fashion, entertaining and I hate being diverted from the Sunday Times. Resigned, I easily anticipated his every word. It's all been said a million times.
I used to smell the air, hungry, and actively hunt down such occasions, never really knowing who was the hunter and who the quarry. But, like everything else, after a while, it just becomes pointless.
Well, even a devil has to make a living and has someone or something to answer to. I sprung for a few rounds and listened politely to his ramble. I even graciously asked for his phone number. Maybe I'll give him a call sometime. He was a snappy dresser and had nice tits.
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Dear talltales. From what you say, devils aren't what they used to be indeed. Mephistopheles has let his training program slip very badly. He should have his new recruits use the Internet to improve their skills. You could start a website for him. He would undoubtedly well reward you. What guerdon would you ask?
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This is an essay I wrote about my nephew, who was involved in a very serious motor vehicle accident.
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On January 2, 2001, my 20-year-old nephew Nicholas (Nik), a former high school state champion distance runner, was involved in a road rage-generated two car accident that left him with multiple broken bones, internal injuries (no liver laceration or spinal injury, thank God), and severe head trauma. When I arrived at the small town hospital two hours away and saw him in ICU, I didn't recognize him. His head was swollen to the size of a basketball and he had already had surgery to relieve the pressure from the bleeding inside his skull. His face had been flattened and pushed to one side, with many teeth knocked out. The only part of him I could hold was the tip of his left pinkie finger. There is absolutely no pain like that of seeing a child you love laying there all busted up, tubes everywhere, with a machine doing his breathing for him.
The driver of the other vehicle had become angry when Nik passed him (legally) on a two-lane country road. The guy was driving a "monster truck" with a steel I-beam welded to the front that served as a front bumper. He chased Nik, who was driving a small sports car, for 56 blocks before Nik spun on some gravel and the guy T-boned him in the driver's side. Nik caught the I-beam across his face. There were no skid marks. The truck pushed the sports car almost 100 feet before it stopped. Nik died at the scene, according to an eyewitness. He stopped breathing for several minutes, then suddenly took a huge breath on his own - the bystander didn't know CPR and didn't want to touch him because of all the blood.
It took three days to stabilize him and get him Life-Flighted to Harborview Trauma Center here in Seattle. He was conscious at first, off and on, but after a couple of days he slid into a deep coma. There he stayed for six weeks, as his vitals crept down by millimeters. He was failing in agonizing tiny steps, things slowing down, and the doctors couldn't do a thing. It was like watching this handsome, vibrant, athletic young man just fade away. Finally, the neurologist ran tests and stated that there was "no brain activity on the left side of the brain, and only the slightest detectable on the right." (CT scans of the brain the first night had shown derangement of the actual brain tissue - a very bad sign.) The neurologist met with my brother and my ex sister-in-law and told them that eventually, they would have to make some decisions.
I have never lived through a darker night. I kept remembering the day he was born, the times I took him to the park as a toddler, the photo I have of him at age 6 sitting in his grandpa's armchair smiling the same smile as the jaunty Mr. Potato Head standing on the chair arm next to him. I told my brother, "Well, they're going to have to think of something to do for him, because I'm not ready to stand at his graveside. I can't and I won't. This is not going to happen."
So, in time, my brother and Nik's mom decided they would take him off the ventilator. The neurologist had said it was almost certain that Nik would not breathe on his own. The insurance company was starting to make noises about not wanting to pay for sustained life support, considering the prognosis.
So the day came when we all went to the hospital, and they got everything set up to take Nik off the ventilator. They allowed only Nik's mom and dad and my mother in the room. The doctor said he would do a "trial run" - stop the ventilator support and see what happened before removing it for good. The moment came, and Nik lay there, still. After about two minutes, damned if that kid didn't take another deep breath on his own, just as he had at the accident scene. He began breathing slowly and regularly, and didn't stop.
The neurologist called it the most stunning thing he had ever seen. He couldn't explain it. CT scans showed the brain tissue was now in its normal configuration, with no sign of injury.
Over the next few weeks, Nik slowly, slowly came up out of his coma, came back from wherever it was he had gone. He began moving his toes and feet, then started squeezing my brother's hand in response to commands. He made his way back to us, bit by bit. One day he opened his eyes and looked at his mother. A few weeks later, I went to see him in his hospital room, and his mother, who had been working ceaselessly with him to recover his motor skills, told him over and over, "Say it for Auntie. Tell her what you can say, Nik. Come on, you can do it. Tell her." He stared at her for a while, his mouth working, then looked slowly from her face to mine, his features as innocent as a baby's, and in a hollow, raspy voice, spoke the words, "My name is Nik."
Over the past 15 months, he has slowly recovered from the trauma. For a long time, his memory was badly affected. He would ask the same question over and over. He didn't remember his friends, or anything he had done in high school. He couldn't remember that my brother-in-law had died, and kept asking for him, and wept every time we told him Randy was gone. He had to be cared for like a child, and sometimes became stubborn and angry. He wanted to isolate, but we didn't let him. We'd take him to a movie, and upon returning home, he would go back to bed, saying he wanted a nap before we went to the movie.
He was much improved by Halloween, though, and it was good to see him relating to everyone. For the first time, he was IN there... it was him, back again, not some faint shadow of the young man we all knew. He had learned again how to bathe and groom himself, and he looked like himself. My brother told me that when the maxillofacial surgeons had begun working on Nik, they had applied pressure to a certain point on his left cheekbone, and to their surprise, his entire facial bone structure had popped over to the right - back into place! The whole structure had shifted as a whole, and all it took was a little pressure to reverse the shift. They had feared the necessity of several surgeries.
His left optic nerve was severed, so he is partially blind, but that's the only permanent injury. Everything else has healed good as new, or nearly.
The reason for this ramble is that I received an email from my brother, Nik's dad, last week. He said Nik, who recently set aside the cane he's been using since he got out of his wheelchair, requested that he be taken out to the high school track. My brother thought he wanted to just sit there and look, and remember, but when he pulled up in the parking lot, Nik got out and began walking slowly toward the track.
He arrived at the oval, stood for a moment, and then moved out onto the rough surface. All around the inner edge, at a shuffling walk, he "ran" for the first time since his accident. He ran all the way around, stopping often, resting a few times for several minutes, but he crossed the finish line.
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I can tell this site is going to keep me running to my dictionary, which is a good thing. Based on my second essay, I would of course ask that my nephew regain 100% of his former health and wellbeing. I suppose that's a given.
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In irish folklore, you can always recognize the devil, because he cast no shadow.
but rather than being an out right tempter, the devil uses flattery.
Oh how sweet your words are.. What a clever idea you had, i am going to copy it... Punny, did you realize you were so punny?
the devil baits his trap with sweetness, goodness, the devil wouldn't approach at a bar, but would be dressed modestly, in a nurses uniform, and would trip, and fall, and land in a puddle, on the sidewalk out side the bar, just as you were leaving..
the puddle, a nasty collection of waste water from all the pails that has washed all the floors of all the bar along the street, could barely be called water.. her uniform would be stained, and littered, and wet. you'd help the devil up, and want to assist in whiping some choice bit of nastyness off, and in doing so, you notice how sheer the white uniform had become. The fright, had caused a rush of adrenaline, and now, realizing she is not really hurt, the hormome secondary effect is hardened nipples-- how evident they are...
Thank you, your so kind.. i, i. tremble... i am always a bit frightened when i have to be out this late and alone, and now look what i have done..
would you mind, could you just walk with me to the subway? i came down this street looking for a cab.. Can you help?
the devil would be strong and confident.. but still set things up to flatter you.. the devil would lure you by first seeming to encourage acts of kindness.
in the cab, the stricken nurse (an angel, in white, a helper, a caretaker of the weak and sick, --not some flousy, not a tart..but someone you would want to help..
dressed modestly.. except now, the wet white cotton cloth is almost sheer, and the wet cloth clings.. ) would give an adress, and with a deep sigh, sit back, and almost immediately, fall asleep, and sag against your shoulder, and arm suddenly landing in you lap..
The devil is stil out there. not in some tawdry dress, but hidden in the sweetest, nicest guise.
but one thing is true, the devil is a phiopolemica!
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Dear talltales. Sounds as though one of your devils was driving the monster truck.
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I seem to have digressed from the original intent of this thread - pardon me. I was responding to the good doctor's request for tall tales. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming! Edit: I cannot find the word "philopolemica" anywhere. I even tried a Greek-English translator. What is the definition, please? Aha: Philopolemic - "Fond of polemics or controversy" Those derivations will lead us astray, won't they?
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philo-- love (lover of)
polemic(a) war
both from the greek of course.
yes, you did digress a bit.. but the devil (are you one of his advocates?) would be pholpolemical! so -- not to far off..
Mostly this site is for words.. but ocasionally, we do have digression like yours.. We're a tought crowd, please us, and we'll let you get away with them all the times.. bore us, and we'll let you know real fast too! we tend to be as tough a critic as any editor is dealing with unsolited material!
humor, especially droll humor, plays very well here.
please note, above, i used a rather imperial we the opinions above are entirely my own!
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Thank you, of troy. As a great lover of droll humor, I understand completely - and how well do I know that anything unsolicited is automatically fair game for comment, gentle or not! I look forward to an enjoyable time here at AWAD.
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Dear ralltales: In Goethe's "Faust", the Devil promises Faust that he will live, with some special powers, until he sees something so beautiful that he says the fatal words: 'Don't go, you are so beautiful!' I haven't seen the text for almost sixty years, but I remember how surprised I was that the thing of such beauty, Faust forget the penalty , was the idea of building the Panama Canal!
What do you think would be beautiful enough to make a modern Faust forget the penalty?
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Oh what a great idea, Dr Bill, but not on this thread! a new one for beauty!
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"the devil would lure you by first seeming to encourage acts of kindness."
Perhaps, Helen. But surely not all kindness is deviltry?
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When devil try, devil succeed.
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I got into a flame war once with a person who used battology. It was utterly amazing. She wrote a few intelligent things, but most everything she said was stupid. She kept reiterating the exact same phrase. After watching her FOR MONTHS respond to other people's posts with the same stupid phrase, I finally referred to her postings as "leavings" and thanks her for having excreted her pearls of distilled stupidity. The dam had broken.
What was even more surprising was that there were modestly intelligent people (self-proclaimed geniuses) who took her side in the argument. They claimed to be objective and at the same time declared their undying devotion to her.
Ah, well. Water under the bridge. They read that wit is invisible to the man that has none. I suppose the same could be said for reason.
k
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When one drop of blood is spilled in the ocean, quietly cruising sharks go into feeding frenzy.
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Wiser words were never spoken.
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and this last one, which i think may be a legal term (Sparteye?? can you elaborate?)
ex silentio - from silence: basing an argument on the lack or absence of evidence, data, firm proof, etc.I don't think the term ex silentio is in common use, although sub silentio is .... Under silence; without any notice being taken. Passing a thing sub silentio may be evidence of consent.The concept is embodied in legislative acquiescence, a doctrine of statutory interpretation. An example: In 1935, the Michigan Legislature enacted the police and firefighters civil service act, MCL 38.501 et seq, to protect police officers and firefighters from arbitrary and unjust discharge from their jobs. Included in the act is a section which provides in part that The tenure of each person holding an office, place, position, or employment under this act shall be only during good behavior and efficient service, and any person may be removed or discharged, suspended without pay, and deprived of vacation privileges or other special privileges by the civil service commission for incompetency, inefficiency, dishonesty, drunkenness, immoral conduct, insubordination, discourteous treatment to the public, neglect of duty, a violation of this act or of the rules of the commission, or for any other failure of good behavior, or for any other acts of misfeasance, malfeasance, or nonfeasance in office. However, a member of any fire or police department encompassed by this act shall not be removed, discharged, reduced in rank or pay, suspended, or otherwise punished except for cause, and in no event until he or she has been furnished with a written statement of the charges and the reasons for the actions. In addition, all charges shall be void unless filed within 90 days after the date the violation occurred, except in the case of a probationer,... MCL 38.514 You can see the full text of the provision here: http:// http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-38-514In the 1970s, a series of cases arose in which the notice required by this provision was not given within 90 days of the date of the violation. The problem presented was whether a muncipal employer could discharge a police officer based upon illegal conduct even later than 90 days after the conduct occurred on the basis that the employer did not know of the conduct until after the period had expired. In Hunn v Madison Heights, 60 Mich App 326; 230 NW2d 414 (1975), for example, in April 1972 an officer “borrowed” $120 from a prisoner and brought the prisoner a pack of beer, and later made an admittedly false felony report. The city did not learn of the misconduct until July 11, 1972, and in a document dated August 2, 1972, the city notified the officer of the charges and of its decision to discharge him. The officer brought suit, and asserted that the discharge was invalid because the charges had not been brought within 90 days of the misconduct. The reviewing court applied the common law concept of a discovery period to permit discharge under the circumstances. That is, traditionally, in applying limitations periods to claims, the period of limitation begins to run from the date the plaintiff knew or should have discovered the claim, and that traditional rule was engrafted onto the police and firefighters civil service act. As a result, notice of the charges within 90 days of the employer’s discovery of the misconduct was held to be timely under the act. See also, Solomon v Highland Park CSC, 47 Mich App 536; 209 NW2d 698 (1973), and Werner v Macomb County, 77 Mich App 533; 258 NW2d 548 (1977). The law thus remained for years. In 1986, the Legislature rewrote substantial portions of the act, but reenacted the above-quoted provision without amendment. And this is where the concept of legislative acquiescence comes in: it says, given the opportunity of time, and in this case, of actually reenacting the pertinent provision without addressing the pertinent issue, if the Legislature disagreed with the judicial interpretation of the act it would have amended it to alter that interpretation. Having not done so, the Legislature is understood to have acquiesced in that construction. This concept was put to the test in 1995 in Goodridge v Ypsilanti Twp Board, 209 Mich App 344; 529 NW2d 665 (1995), and Command Officers Assoc v Allen Park, 210 Mich App 485; 534 NW2d 258 (1995). In Goodridge, the plaintiff fire chief hired firefighters using eligibility lists he knew were fraudulent. The lists were compiled on April 7 and April 21, 1986. The fraud was discovered in July 1986, and in a letter dated October 16, 1986, the defendant township board charged the plaintiff with malfeasance and terminated his employment. The plaintiff brought suit, asserting violation of the police and firefighters civil service act. Departing from the 1970s decisions, the majority of the Goodridge court concluded that the discharge was untimely. This majority was applying a strict, textualist approach to interpretation of the statute. The dissent noted, among other things, that the majority was failing to acknowledge legislative acquiescence. Goodridge was followed a short time later by Command Officers Assoc, supra, but only because that court was required to follow the rule announced in Goodridge because of a new administrative order which prohibited conflicts among panels of the Court of Appeals. Goodridge was reversed by the Supreme Court. Goodridge v Ypsilanti Twp Board, 451 Mich 446; 547 NW2d 668 (1996), which noted that the 1986 amendments to the act did not substantively change the pertinent provision, and agreed that the provision should continue to be construed as it had since the 1970s. Interestingly, the author of the reversed Goodridge opinion is now on the Supreme Court, and his textualist approach is now in favor on that court. So, there is more that you ever wanted to know about some Michigan cases. But the circumstance, I hope, illustrates the concept of legislative acquiescence.
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
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the civil service commission for incompetency, inefficiency, dishonesty, drunkenness, immoral conduct, insubordination, discourteous treatment to the public, neglect of duty, a violation of this act or of the rules of the commission, or for any other failure of good behavior, or for any other acts of misfeasance, malfeasance, or nonfeasance in office.
They have a civil service commission for incompetency and discourteous treatment of the public [interrobang]. I thought they just came naturally.
Bingley
Bingley
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