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I don't know beans about poetry, Max, and Emily Dickinson is way beyond me. I don't see how her words could be changed without hurting the poetry. She was something special, and had a license to break rules.
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Death = the act
"I" = the person meeting the Act of dying
Immortality = the transformation after death (i.e., what's to come)
The poem makes sense to me as written.
From the other side,
WordWraith
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Dear Max: It just doesn't read as well if either is taken out. But is by itself not a very strong word. Just is stronger I'm sure she used both because she liked the effect. It sounds right to me as poetry.
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I've never read the poem so I cannot comment on her poetic license to write it that way.
If I read it straight out, without considering the source, it sounds incorrect. "none but" would sound better. "just ourselves ..." is o.k., however "but just" ...definitely redundant.
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stranger
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Hello,
My thoughts on this: I think the grammatical inaccuracy reduces the pride of the line. "None but ourselves and immortality" sounds more proud than "but just ourselves and immortality." Simplicity is added to the line through colloquial usage.
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old hand
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I've never read the poem
Have a look:
Because I could not stop for Death,
He kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.
We slowly drove, he knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labor, and my leisure too,
For his civility.
We passed the school where children played,
Their lessons scarcely done;
We passed the fields of gazing grain,
We passed the setting sun.
We paused before a house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible.
The cornice but a mound.
Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity.
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". I don't think there is a number disagreement problem with the three entities, it's simply that I would normally say either "The carriage held but ourselves and Immortality" or The carriage held none but ourselves and Immortality."
Uh, Max, reread Wordwinds post. Hey Drow, welcome, I agree but good poets rarely write words with a singular reason.
Remember the game How many is in the carriage?
(A) The carriage held but ourselves and immortality: THREE.
(B)The carriage held none but ourselves and immortality:
THREE.
(C) The carriage held but just ourselves and immortality: TWO. Immortality is condition that "I" and "Death" possess.
PS: Max did you know that New Zealand is the only country on Earth that doesn't have crows? John Wattie, New Zealander, Radiologist, Photographer, Birdlover, Marrier of a maori girl, told me that in 1973. If you get the chance look him up and tell him that his caving friends in Birmingham said "Hi!".
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I like the word "just" because of its inherent humility.
"just ourselves"--here juxtaposed with "immortality..."
Death and the "I" here are just...well, just. And just the end points of life--but, ah, immortality--that's altogether different! That's the great concept, the great intuitive leap, all the hope and faith!
Emily's use of "just" is both reverberant with humility and even has a tang of "justice" itself--but that's probably an overreading on my part. Still, I can see what's just in her "just."
Just procrastinating here,
WordOtherWorldly
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(C) The carriage held but just ourselves and immortality: TWO. Immortality is condition that "I" and "Death" possess.
max, in the world of computer science this is known as the "exclusive but".
either that, or the third person has gone up in a whiff of smoke.
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(A) The carriage held but ourselves and immortality: THREE.
(B)The carriage held none but ourselves and immortality:
THREE.
(C) The carriage held but just ourselves and immortality: TWO. Immortality is condition that "I" and "Death" possess.
I can't get the distinction you are making.
I can see the distinction between C and the other two (in A and B immortality is personified and thus a third passenger and in C it is just a trait that they share, like wearing black). It's the difference between A and B that I don't see.
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Dear Max, After sending my last post, I thought, Hmmm? Maybe Max will misinterpret my crow remark. Then I thought, what the heck, maybe New Zealanders don't even use the phrase "eating crow"
This morning I was reading Bird Brains: The Intelligence of Crows, Ravens, Magpies, and Jays. The " ...crows are in every country but New Zealand" part reminded me of Dr. Wattie, which reminded me of you, therefore the comment.
Death has just picked up Emily in his carriage.
Add a comma to the line ...but just ourselves, and (ah yes) immortality.
Good day from up here,
Milo.
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the poem capitalises Immortality
I don' know nuthin bout no steenkin poem, I uz jus interpeting milum fer ya. Bes I cuud anyways.
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...to send the very best": Maya Angelou is now working for Hallmark Cards. Humorist Andy Borowitz speculates on what dead poets' contributions might have been to the industry of the pre-packaged greeting: Coleridge:In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
But since I don’t make that kind of dough,
Here’s a birthday card from me.For more examples, see: http://borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=174
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Love it, Elizabeth.  That might have been the original version, had the person from Porlock arrived earlier -- and nowadays, does it sometime seem that Porlock is everywhere? http://www.robertfulford.com/porlock.html
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Dang-it Keiva, I had a great post all ready to post but
then you interrupted with that url about the Gentleman from Porlock. Now I can't remember it at all. Let's see...what was it?...Oh yeah, now I remember. In the most eloquent of terms it explained how a large group of people could communicate with each other without rules, structure, or leaders, without degenerating into the most base of behaviors, and they lived happily for the rest of their lives...,
Boy-oh-boy, if only Keiva hadn't interrupted...
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I agree with Drow that "Simplicity is added to the line through colloquial usage." Also it plain ol' scans better thataway. Some years ago, a professor asked us to rewrite this poem, using modern images to give our own interpretations. Doing it was somewhat a puzzle. For example, who or what could be used in the place of Death, who was simultaneously so gentlemanly and, well, um, lethal? - Is anyone willing to have a go at a rewrite?  Tsyganka
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Is anyone willing to have a go at a rewrite?
Here's my attempt, Tsyganka. I decided truth might be one of the few things nearly as unwelcome as death, sometimes.
I struggled with cornice, but decided to leave it, for lack of a better option. Gutter could at least be near the same location, but it is such an ugly word! Garden fitted the intent better, but is too far from the meaning of cornice.
Because I could not stop for Truth,
He kindly stopped for me;
The car held only just ourselves,
And Immortality.
We slowly drove, there was no haste,
And I had put away
My brash career, and leisure too,
For his serenity.
We passed the school where children played,
Their lessons scarcely done;
We passed offices newly plain,
We passed the setting sun.
We paused before a house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible.
The cornice but a mound.
Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the bright headlights
Were toward eternity.
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Dang-it Keiva, I had a great post all ready to post but then you interrupted with that url about the Gentleman from Porlock. ... it explained how a large group of people could communicate with each other without rules, structure, or leaders, without degenerating into the most base of behaviorsMy apologies for the interruption, Milum, but perhaps I can jog your recall. Perhaps you were thinking of "Lord of the Flies"?
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Hey Drow - welcome aBoard!
stales
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Welcome aboard, Drow! Seems you chose a rather stimulating thread to make your entrance! Enjoy! I've always been fascinated with Emily Dickinson, but until I googled this with a dumb luck "Emily Dickinson but just" trying to find another instance in her poetry I seem to recall of her using "but just", I stumbled upon information about this poem totally new to me...and I've seen Julie Harris's "The Belle of Amherst" numerous times, and you'd think this would be mentioned...maybe it was but I somehow overlooked it. Anyway this poem, usually titled in anthologies, "Because I Could Not Stop For Death," is actually the epitaph her sister had engraved on Emily's tombstone entitled "E.D. Called Back." And editors later did some debatable polishing, and deleted a whole stanza which is included here in the original text (don't'cha love editors! hi wow!). Here it is with the introductory paragraph. The site, http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ihas/poet/dickinson.html, provides the complete story, some more insightful but brief background on Ms. Dickinson, and a photo of her gravesite. To the tiny New England graveyard, across the fields where
in girlhood Emily Dickinson had watched the funeral
corteges wend their way, a solemn procession carried the
white-robed remains of the poet, who died in her home on
May 15, 1886. The epitaph her sister Lavinia later had
inscribed on her tombstone-- "E.D. Called Back"--tersely
reminds visitors of a life lived in realms beyond the
temporal.
Because I could not stop for Death--
He kindly stopped for me--
The Carriage held but just Ourselves--
And Immortality.
We slowly drove--he knew no haste
And I had put away
My labor and my leisure too,
For his Civility.
We passed the School, where Children strove
At Recess -- in the Ring --
We passed the Fields of Gazing Grain --
We passed the Setting Sun --
Or rather -- He passed Us --
The Dews drew quivering and chill --
For only Gossamer, my Gown --
My Tippet -- only Tulle--
We paused before a House that seemed
A Swelling of the Ground --
The Roof was scarcely visible --
The Cornice -- in the Ground --
Since then --'tis Centuries -- and yet
Feels shorter than the Day
I first surmised the Horses Heads
Were toward Eternity -- (there is a dividing graphic included here, so I'm not sure if this is an addendum to the actual epitaph, or something the writer chose to finish the piece) Why -- do they shut me out of Heaven?
Did I sing -- too loud?
But -- I can sing a little "Minor,"
Timid as a Bird!
Wouldn't the angels try me --
Just -- once more --
Just -- see -- if I troubled them
But don't -- shut the door,!
Oh, if I -- were the Gentlemen
In the "White Robes"
And they -- were the little Hand -- that
knocked --
Could --I forbid? [edit: here's another source that validates this original form of the poem..."always get two sources!"  ] http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_2/dickinson.html[Edit:] The only text to appear on Emily's tombstone as her epitaph is E.D. Called Back. Please see Emily's Epitaph--correction post addendum for clarification. 2/12
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Or rather -- He passed Us --
The Dews drew quivering and chill --
It is astonishing--amazing--how we can read a poem many times, and sometimes a line that passed easily through the network of our brains will, in an unexpected reading, call out its being in strong voice.
The use of "quivering" dews just did so to me! That use of quivering with dews seems nothing less than marvelous and full of genius. Ah, to know Eternity and Immortality, too, and therewithin to have the amplitude of limitless time to let all great words wash through our brains. That's a great hope, huh?
Best regards,
WordWakening
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Thank you again, Jackie, for responding with a re-write. I wouldn't have thought of substituting Truth for Death; but yes - it works!
It's interesting, too, that preserving E.D.'s poetic form also retains the original dignity. From what I remember of the class assignment (early '90s), most of the re-writes were in free verse and didn't have that quality at all. Or, possibly, maybe the class was too young to have thought much about the subject.
Do you suppose that specific subjects are best addressed in particular verse forms?
Tsyganka
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Do you suppose that specific subjects are best addressed in particular verse forms?
Definitely. For one, I think reflections on sternutation work best in haiku.
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I think reflections on sternutation work best in haiku.
In proper season,
one's thoughts on sternutation
work best in haiku.
Why archie, you're completely right!
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" I think reflections on sternutation work best in haiku." Why, bless you! Tsyganka, whose hubba-hubba is a master of permutation of the sternutation
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Oh, Sweet WO'N, thank you, thank you! This verse makes all the difference in the world:
Or rather -- He passed Us --
The Dews drew quivering and chill --
For only Gossamer, my Gown --
My Tippet -- only Tulle--
Before, the line about passing the setting sun made no sense to me, as it was out of context with everything else in the poem. That is, it was the only line that went into fantasy. All else was real-world, except for 'tis centuries. I had to look up tippet. Oh, and that name, Lavinia. You never hear that any more, but my Aunt Mary had a friend named that, whom she mentioned often.
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LaviniaI just read a book, Random Passage, where the narrator's name is Lavinia. It's just been made into a TV mini-series of the same name (Random Passage, that is, not Lavinia!).
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E. D. Called BackAfter logging-off the night I made the epitaph entry a question nagged at me as I prepared for sleep, because it didn't make sense, somehow, that such a long poem would be inscribed as the epitaph on a tombstone. Indeed, my suspicions bear out. Upon further research I confirmed that E. D. Called Back is the complete text of the epitaph inscribed on her tombstone (and is NOT, therefore, the original title of Because I Could Not Stop For Death): In 1884, Emily became ill with a kidney disease generically called "Bright's
Disease," and soon became bedridden. She died after lapsing into a coma on
May 15, 1886. Her tombstone epitaph contains the two words she sent in a
message to her cousins shortly before she died: "Called Back." http://www.allsands.com/Literature/emilydickinson_akh_gn.htmThe wording of the site previously cited was misleading, and seemed to point to the other conclusion. ( two sources!  ) The reference to an original text of the poem Because I Could Not Stop For Death is correct and accurate.
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FWIW, there's a newish book out on Emily: My Wars Are Laid Away in Books by Alfred Habegger, Random House Oct 2001, ISBN: 0-679-44986-8.
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Fiberbabe, I was gonna ask how/why you would have such a link at your fingertips, and then decided against it . All will be unveiled at Wordapalooza!, [damned puntuation marks] yes?
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>Do you suppose that specific subjects are best addressed in particular verse forms?
What do the board members think about the certain verse forms being specific to poets?
--
I had posted this earlier - it got deleted somehow.
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Hi Max,
After some hesitation I resolved to cut into this learned dialogue. Two consecutive words with similar meaning are not always a redundancy: the device can be used as a means of re-inforcement, which is just about the opposite. And apart from the demands of rhythm, this is what "but just" is here for i.m.h.o.
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enthusiast
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hornyforgod ?????
Yeah, I was wondering about that too... (?)
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hornyforgod???
Sparteye and Rapunzel, please see new thread "horny for ice cream" here on Q & A for this discussion.
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What do the board members think about the certain verse forms being specific to poets?That makes more sense than what I was wondering about (i.e., certain verse forms being best for certain subjects). I guess that most poets would generally write in a favorite particular form. Tsyganka, who sits corrected
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