|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Why do we ask, "Cat got your tongue?" I haven't seen a cat get anybody's tongue. Sure, we all know about cats who try to drink milk out of babies' mouths--never saw one horrors!, but have heard about it in old wives' tales.
But cats getting people's tongues? That just doesn't make any sense to me.
Don't let the cat get your tongue on this one. I would really appreciate some edification here.
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Max: I enjoyed the cat site. But I doubt very much if some oriental brutality had anything to do with my mildly punitive aunt mocking my hesitancy to admit wrong doing.
And while we're at it, I have never except in jest heard "aunt" pronounced like the appellation of a member of the family Formicidae.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Max:
About the suggestion on the link you provided: So, the miscreants lost their hands or tongues, and these were fed to the mideastern king's cats as "their daily food."
Heckuva lot of miscreants in those days to provide all that food on a daily basis for the king's kittens, huh?
Dub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1 |
re: ant vs aunt
It's a regionalism, I suspect. I'm from New York and there isn't any detectable difference there between the insect and the sister of my father (not aurally, anyway) - both are pronounced like the a in "hand." On the other hand my wife is from Boston and the distinction is quite clear when she speaks (I won't even try to illustrate!). Your California aunt is probably somewhere in between, at least linguistically speaking.
On an analogous note, I'm told that in New York City during the Depression, when a municipal job was prized as one of few available source of income and teachers' positions therefore at a premium, how you pronounced "oral" and "aural" could qualify or disqualify you from consideration...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear wofahulicodoc: I was born and raised in Massachusetts. Man spricht wie der Schnabel gewachsen ist.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Wof writes: I'm from New York and there isn't any detectable difference there between the insect and the sister of my father ...
And where does this sister of your father reside? In a little thin rectangular box filled with earth? Hmmmmm?
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1 |
Come, come, sir, I did say "aurally," didn't I? As it happens, she too started in NYC (as did her sisters, all of whom qualify as my aunt), but anyway we're supposed to be talking about her title, not her pronunciation :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
 And where does this sister of your father reside, Hmmmmmm? Uh, Wordwind, in case I forget, remind me to never cross you. Your friend, Milum.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Hey, hey, Wof! I'm a woman...
There is, however, that Peanuts girl character who calls another girl, "Sir." Mebbe that's how you're thinkin' this mornin'!
Best regards,
WordWoman
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
that Peanuts girl character who calls another girl, "Sir."
It was also standard in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine to refer to officers as sir irrespective of the officer's sex. Probably in other Star Treks of that vintage, too, but DS9 was the only one I watched with any regularity. Ain' nothing particularly sex specific about the term other than the minor fact that it stems from a Latin masculine form of an adjective.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>to refer to officers as sir irrespective of the officer's sex.
yessiree, bob -- faldage must have been still in a holiday mood to write this way irregardless of what he'd usually type. 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
irrespective of the officer's sex.tsuwm, would not "gender" have been more precise -- or were you deliberately invoking penumbra?  Btw, I realize that my point is inconsistent with the usage note at http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/G0075900.html -- which itself notes inconsistency of usage. How do others of you conceptualize the linguistic distinction between "sex" and "gender"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
"Irregardless" - We all know what it means, but many might list it high among their pet peeves. But I wonder what the technical name is for the internal double negative. How about some other words with same problem?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Sex: male or female, a biological category often confused with
Gender: many examples in many languages, a grammatical category often confused with sex in languages which have adopted the so-called "natural" gender, notably English and Turkish. Many languages have two genders but by no means are they masculine and feminine. Frequently we find the two genders are animate and inanimate. Other languages have many genders, e.g., round objects, long narrow objects, flat objects, etc. In English sex and gender are often considered to be equivalent concepts. Some consider this to be excessive prudery comparable to calling poultry legs drumsticks or placing coverings over piano legs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
faldage must have been still in a holiday mood to write this way
FTR. I was going to use irregardless but I figured, hey, give it a rest. Fat Chance!
the full line was irregardless of whether or not the officer was or wasn't male or female or not.
[whiter]AFTR when *I'm being humorous I use Aint for my father's sister (or mother's sister for that matter)[/whiter]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1 |
My, my, and to think this tempest-in-a-teapot started out as a discussion of the arbitrari- and unfair-ness of job-hunting in New York during the Depression, which itself was a pretty far cry from people being unwilling or to shy to speak. One-hundred-eighty degree turnaround ! How often do we do that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Returning to the original question: Why do we ask, "Cat got your tongue?" But cats getting people's tongues? That just doesn't make any sense to me.
The phrase is clearly a corruption of the standard inquiry made of a person who is so very silent that one wonders whether his-or-her mouth has been sewn shut -- a wonder expressed by the inquiry, "Catgut your tongue?"
(he said facetiously)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Keiva,
Just to keep the record straight, while we imagine this person's lips sewn together, it's really sheep gut, after all. (And then there's the wild, imaginative leap to sheepish--but I'd be contsuwmed, for sure, for that one!)
Best regards,
WordWonderer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Re: Gender-- as in ...many examples in many languages, a grammatical category often confused with sex in languages
which is understandable, since the root word for gender-- gen-- goes back to the idea of giving birth-- and leads to words like genitals... (and even with out that.. the first question asked-- or answered unbidden by anyone attending the birth is "Boy!" or "Girl!" )
and i don't understand why the idea that ..... sex and gender are often considered to be equivalent concepts. Some consider this to be excessive prudery comparable to calling poultry legs drumsticks or placing coverings over piano legs.
I understand excessive prudery-- and how it lead to "white" and "dark" meat, rather than "breast" or "leg"-- but how does the idea that "sex and gender are often considered to be equivalent concepts tie in with excessive prudery? if anything, it seems to do the opposite, and make the concept of gender more "sexual"-- not less..
it seems that gender in language is closer to the meaning of family-- gender defines "families" of words.. and gender could be used to define Animal, vegetable or mineral.. not just masculine and feminine.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear WW: I haven't been in an OR for many years, and so have not idea what suture materials are used today. I suspect however, that nylon and other new synthetic materials have largely replaced gut, except possibly for buried sutures that have to be slowly absorbed.
And I suppose that string music is no longer the tail of a horse being drawn across the entrails of a cat.
It may well be that children are no longer told that dragonflies are darning needles capable of sewing their mouths shut. Most of the dragonfly habitat is now shopping mall.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
And I suppose that string music is no longer the tail of a horse being drawn across the entrails of a cat.Then you clearly haven't been listening to what passes for pop music today, Bill! However, note that, unlike some years ago, the musicians appear to see no need to remove the horse's hair from the horse's tail or the tail from the horse or even to kill the cat first ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
One of the consolations of my deafness is that I am not missing much, considering that ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening to, and the remaining ten percent is hard to find.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening too, and the remaining ten percent is hard to find.
Sounds like Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Yep. Ah ... does that include this forum, Faldage? ... Never!  And Bill, you said One of the consolations of my deafness is that I am not missing much, considering that ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening to, and the remaining ten percent is hard to find.Not arguing with you, but, um, how do you know? Just askin' ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear wwh:
The best musicians use Mongolian stallion hair in their bows. There's a world o' learnin' in the art of the bow. Some bows (most often viola) have what's called "salt and pepper" hair--which is the bleached-out white hair mixed with the black Mongolian stallion hair. My daughter's never used the salt and pepper, however, and I don't know personally any violist who does. Some bows (most likely the basses) have all black hair. I always used to ask for stallion hair for my violin bow, and still do for my daughter's viola hair. Then on and on about the types of rosin to use with the hair. There are books on that, too. You can even have your horsehair dyed these days just about any color of the rainbow, but I've only see that in music magazines and never, ever on stage.
But catgut is sheep gut for the strings some strings players use. Catgut (or gut strings--read "sheep") is purportedly harder to keep in tune, and all the synthetics try to approach the sound of gut--but with more carrying power--more projection. I use Tonicas--a synthetic--which sound sweet under the ear, thank heavens, because I'd hate to have anyone other myself listening to me.
Best regards,
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
One name for a stringed instrument is “kit” -- from the Latin name for a guitar, cithara. The gut strings of the instrument are therefore “kit guts.” A simple wrong deduction leads to “catgut.”
-- Dictionary of Word Origins, Jordan Almond
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
I used to play a violin quite badly.My deafness has the peculiarity of making symphony orchestras sound out of tune.And I could not entirely escape the vile stuff a grandson played.FThe sick names of groups suggests the level of their output. A comparatively mild one I recently noticed was "Stale Urine." And I estimate that those degenerates write and play ninety percent of the music today.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Sparteye,
I think the crwth is a type of cithara, or vice versa. That was the very first question I ever posted here as a stranger. Memories are made of this. Thanks for the kitgut connection.
Best regards,
WW
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
And Bill, you said One of the consolations of my deafness is that I am not missing much,
considering that ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening to, and
the remaining ten percent is hard to find.
Not arguing with you, but, um, how do you know? Just askin' ...
So if a song plays in a forest of deaf ears is it still music?
gender bender
So we say, for instance, a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free. [not-a-joke-e]
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd. (I know 'cause this is one of my favorite Scrabble secret weapons!)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear wwh:
You wrote, And while we're at it, I have never except in jest heard "aunt" pronounced like the appellation of a member of the family Formicidae.
You've been from east coast to west and you've never heard people say, "My Ant Jean," "My Ant Connie"? Every aunt I ever had on my Daddy's side was an ant; and on Mama's, they were aunts. It's all tied up in your bloodlines.
Best regards,
An aunt, who's just called Theresa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Unfortunately, dictionaries are sadly lacking. Here's what I googled up this morning about crwth, after having come up with nada in any of the OneLook references, including the illustrious Mr. Fischer's: Crwth is a generic term denoting several small lyres that flourished in western Britain from the eleventh through early nineteenth centuries. Neither crwth nor its many cognates, partial-cognates, and synonyms necessarily indicate any one particular instrument. Specific denotation depended on time, exact locale, and, in some instances, specific individual. Hence written references to performance must be evaluated with care.
The modern crwth was one of the last of the European bowed yoke lyres. Rather than evolving along a single line in the manner of the viol and violin,, the bowed yoke lyre repeatedly split into varied designs, due in great measure to its having been subjected to much experimentation, structural variance, and disparity of playing technique.http://home.earthlink.net/~llywarch/cth03.htmlBrings whole new meaning and depth (crwth as instrument and also as crowd) to that ol' dark fiddler's novel, Far From the Maddening Crwth, huh? Best regards, DiddleDub, whose gray matter insisted she was correct!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1 |
Interesting. I heard this quote attributed to H L Gold (editor of GALAXY Science Fiction) back in the late Fifties, in response to a cranky reader who complained that "Ninety percent of science fiction is crap." Sic transit gloria mundi! Though I'm never sure that my source should be considered more correct than any other...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
attributed to H L Gold
Irregardless, it's widely known in science fiction circles as Sturgeon's Law. Theodore Sturgeon, the science fiction writer. The cranky fan remains the instigator of the answer but the venue changes to a science fiction convention.
Sic transit gloria tusdi
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
So we say a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free.
Well, Duh!. It's neuter. Paramecium. Hello?
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd
And for extra credit, crowd (in this context) means?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Faldage writes:
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd...
and, I iterate, it also means a blooming stringed instrument of many variations. Sheesh! Didn't you see the quote and the link????????
Cranky,
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
So we say a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free.
Well, Duh!. It's neuter. Paramecium. Hello?
Hello? As I read his post, it seemed to me that he was emphasizing how we describe it, and not trying to say what it IS.
Also cranky,
J
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
he was emphasizing how we describe it, and not trying to say what it IS.
We describe it as asexual because it IS asexual; we don't describe it as gender-free because it ISn't gender-free. Its gender IS neuter.
QED
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
it also means a blooming stringed instrument of many variations
I knew that, I was just wondering if Whitman did.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Faldage,
So give us Whitman's line. I'm blank here.
Cranky Blank,
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Thanks, Wordwind! I never knew the musical connotation of crwth! This is from The Folkies' Dictionary on OneLook: crwth (Welsh, pron. "crooth") also known as "crowd", this is a Welsh bowed lyre used by the bards. Three or four strings in its rectangular frame was common. Illustrations from the 11th century show it, and it's probably much older than that. With the decline of the bardic tradition, it was largely gone by the 19th century. It's all up to the period players now.And forgive me for not knowing that, Faldag ium.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
WW
You quoted *my quote of Whitman's line.
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
F
And where does that come from? I don't know this quote, quite, quite obviously.
This is ironic, isn't it?
Best regards,
WW (and that's not Walt Whitman.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear WhitmanO'Nigium,
Thanks for the bone! My gray matter has been most amply acknowledged.
Sighing from the Conundrum,
WordWindium
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear wwh:
And I promise not to post on this thread again today!! Honest!!
My gray matter also tells me that the crwth became to be known as the "crowd." So, your post doesn't surprise me in the least. It simply and amply confirms.
Best regards,
WordWither (which rhymes with zither)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
well, once again it turns out that the crowd, which is indeed the English version of crwth, is an entirely different word from that which we are accustomed to -- some who have bandied crwth around (including the OSPD) probably never bothered to look up crowd. An ancient Celtic musical instrument of the viol class, now obsolete, having in early times three strings, but in its later form six, four of which were played with a bow and two by twitching with the fingers; an early form of the fiddle.Grove Dict. Mus. Crwth or Crowd, as far as we know the oldest stringed instrument played with the bow... Bingley heard it played at Carnarvon as late as 1801; but it is now entirely out of use. Dylan Thomas Under Milk Wood (1954) He intricately rhymes, to the music of crwth and pibgorn. ...Bingley??
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
At last: a post, titled regarding paramecia, that actually refers to paramecia.
So we say a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free.
Well, Duh! It's neuter. Paramecium. Hello?
Actually, by understanding is that paramecia can reproduce either asexually (by division) or "sexually", by fusion of the genetic matter of two separate individuals. Furthermore, the choice is not random. A colony of paramecia, left undisturbed, will reproduce by fission, by an individual dividing into two. But if a separate colony -- a separate population -- is introduced, then the mode switches over to fusion, and consistently, the fusing pairing-paramecium will be from opposite colonies; an individual will not fuse with a member of its own colony. In other words, the species appears to express a reproductive preference in favor of genetic diversity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,540 Likes: 1 |
Theodore Sturgeon, the science fiction writer
who had the temerity to publish a collection of short stories under the title "Caviar, by Sturgeon". I'm not sure I've yet forgiven him for that. Or maybe it was his publisher who should take the heat/get the credit?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
then there is Fischer's Corollary which refers specifically to people and makes some sort of pointed imputation as to 99% of them....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
"sexually", by fusion of the genetic matter of two separate individuals.
Yeahbut©, the fusion of genetic material is not sexual in the way we normally think of sexual, i.e., genetic material from one individual introduced to the other individual, in which other individual the offspring develops. What happens in the paramecia is that genetic material is traded and each then proceeds to divide in the normal asexual manner. Biology was never my strong suit so perhaps this is defined as sexual in some technical way that I am unaware of, in which case I will stand corrected, but until then I stand fast.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Faldage, yours a very interesting point, and it comes down to defining precisely what is meant by "sexual" (as opposed to asexual) reproduction. Concept-spinning here, and without any LIU, I would think the key point is that the DNA from two distinct individuals is combined, so that the offspring has DNA which each parent (individually) lacked, and thus brings together a new and potentially valuable combination of DNA. With asexual reproduction, the offspring would generally be a clone of its parent (except for mutations), thus minimizing the diversity from which natural selection (using that phrase in the biological sense) could select. and yes, dr. bill, there are forms of asexual reproduction in which the offspring cell has only part, but not all, of the DNA of the parent cell, and hence is not a clone thereof. One example would be meiosis, the production of haploid cells from a diploid parent-cell.That is, I would thing that the test of whether reproduction is "sexual" would be whether genetic material so as to product a new combination -- regardless of how that new-combination cell then proceeds. But I will say that bartleby provides no clear answer, as far as I can tell. I'd think the test cannot be whether the genetic material combines (and/or the offspring develops) at a place inside or a place outside the body of a parent. For by that test, fish would be deemed asexual: THE FISH
...
The chastest of the vertebrates,
He never even sees his mates,
but when they've finished, he appears
And O.K.'s all their bright ideas.
--- Ogden Nash
BTW, on the site on which I found this poem, it was immediately followed by Nashs poetic ode to the hippopotamus. Which see. btw #2: "O.K." is verbatim in the original.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Interesting point on the fish, Keiva, although there are fish in which one or the other of the parents carries the fertilized eggs. As I said before, the biological intricacies are beyond me. Not to mention the universe being full of a great number of things.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Faldage, I guess this is one where neither of us knows the answer -- but at least we know that we don't know!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Keiva,
You wrote in a hidden way:
[Bright Blazing Red]BTW, on the site on which I found this poem, it was immediately followed by Nashs poetic ode to the hippopotamus. Which see. btw #2: "O.K." is verbatim in the original.[/Bright Blazing Red]
You were just seeing whether I could stay away, weren't you? Now admit it!!
I think, by the way, that your arguments for sexual reproduction of paramecia make perfectly good sense, mixing of varieties of DNA into the paramecia goulash, and all that.
Best regards,
DubDub Who really cannot resist a hippo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Warning: Never let a hippo hoppoo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Poster: wwh
Subject: Re: Sex life of paramecia
Warning: Never let a hippo hoppoo.
If we start talking about the sex life of hippos, ... I'm leaving.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Keiva,
But you sounded so terrifically clinical in your hypothesizing! Listen to yourself:
Concept-spinning here, and without any LIU, I would think the key point is that the DNA from two distinct individuals is combined, so that the offspring has DNA which each parent (individually) lacked, and thus brings together a new and potentially valuable combination of DNA. With asexual reproduction, the offspring would generally be a clone of its parent (except for mutations), thus minimizing the diversity from which natural selection (using that phrase in the biological sense) could select.
Now that's just darned great stuff there! Just use the same voice when clinically describing the mating habits of the hippopotamus! The cold, direct, clinical eye and no nonsense. See? After all, the hippo's just a gigantic, more complex version of the paramecium, hmmmmm?
Best regards,
Dub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
A potentially crushing experience.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4 |
OOPS! Didn't read the complete thread before posting this. So southerners aren't as anomalous as I thought... [Can anybody edit a post or can we only edit our own?]
from wwh: And while we're at it, I have never except in jest heard "aunt" pronounced like the appellation of a member of the family Formicidae.
So you haven't spent much time in central Oklahoma, eh? I grew up pronouncing aunt as ant. Upon arriving in the blessed north, a new friend politely pointed out the correct pronunciation (then there was root, which I was rhyming with put - egads), but now it grates a bit to hear the southern version.
Anybody else have southern exposure? I'm curious about whether this is truly a case of southern weirdness [no offense to anybody who loves it] or just a regional anomaly.
Happy Holidays!
diborg
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear diborg: I spent a couple days visiting my son in Airbase near Enid, OK when he was in AF there. I didn't have any contact with local people. I'm not good at recognizing regional accents anyway. I have no idea how Southerners and Westerners detect my origin so quickly. Most of them however, make gross hilarious efforts to mimic it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I grew up in Chicago. My mother was a Wisconsin farm girl, my father a northern urban born in Scotland who spent most of his youth in New York or Chicago. I never heard it spoken with that horrid aw or ah sound except in jest or pretension.
Just goes to show, I guess
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear Faldage,
And you were the one writing recently about how children learn English! It's all environment, not pretension, unless, of course, the environment is ridden with pretension, always a possibility.
Off a bit, I still can't understand why my father's sisters were always ants to me and my mother's, aunts. Both families came from southern Virginia, and there ain't much that's pretentious here.
And off a bit more, my daughter insists upon pronouncing either "EYE-thur." She picked that up years ago in middle school and it plumb (plum? still don't know) goes against my grain.
Best regards,
Ant Wordwind
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Dear Dub' Dub I reserve the right to make fun of others (and myself) without using s. Eyethur is about all I hear anymore. In my yoot it always sounded pretentious.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Faldage says, I grew up in Chicago. My mother was a Wisconsin farm girl ... I never heard it ["aunt"] spoken with that horrid aw or ah sound ..." and, "Eyethur is about all I hear anymore. In my yoot it always sounded pretentious."
Faldage, I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and still live there and my wife is a Wisconsin farm girl. The pronunciations we hear here are ant and eether.
To local ears, awnt, ahnt and eyether still sound pretentious or foreign.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
how do y'all hear the phrase "agony aunts"?
(jest wonderin')
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688 |
I have always said eyether, but say ant. However, I find I have unusual pronunciations for a Buffalonian (one born and raised in the Buffalo, NY area).
How does everyone say roof?
And I have a hard time pronouncing, (of all things), apple! I have this way of saying ahpple, and can't get myself to say it with the harder A sound.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Just wonderin' what in Sam's Hill "agony aunts" are? Is this something esoteric or just still another huge gap in my education?
Pronunciation: AGGG-uh-knee ants, unless you're using it in a poem and you want it to rhyme with taunts, haunts, daunts, etc. (Although wouldn't it be fun to write a poem in which you're thinking that agony aunts is agony ants, and you want the reader to read tants, hants, and dants. Now there's a creative nudge!)
Angel, good to see you again. I say "rooooooof," but lots of people here in Virginia say "ruff"; I think they's all pups, however.
Best regards,
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
archetypically, they are the likes of advice columnists Ann Landers and Abigail Van Buren.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
All for understanding those archetypes! So, we got Agony Abby and Agony Ann, both ants, who help you with your hants, tants, and dants.
Thanks, t!
Best regards,
DubDub
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
So what does an ant call its mother's sister?
(leaving now...getting close to Eagles/Giants time) and I guess I'd better run after that one!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Though it's attractive to suppose that Formica© has something to do with ants, t'aint so. http://www.formica-europe.com/main_com.htm: Formica was invented in Cincinnati in 1913 by two young men, Herbert Faber and Daniel O'Connor. It was intended to serve as an electrical insulator and was created as a replacement for Mica, which was used for that purpose at the time. Hence the name 'for mica'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
"Agony Aunt" is chiefly a Brit expression, so I guess we can surmise how it's *supposed to be pronounced.
For further/previous discussion of regional pronunciations of "aunt", see another thread Wordwind started that also sort of warped off into insect kinship here recently in Q&A on Lifetime Pronunciation Addi(c[sic])tions.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
... which is a pun of sorts, given what's transpired (or transgressed) in this thread while I've been ignoring it.
Imagine this Latin conversation, held between, say, Marcus and Brutus by a food stall in the forum on March 15, 44BC
"Marcus, estne haec?"
"Salve Brutus. Formica est."
"O me miseram! Barf! Chunder! Quo lamnia mea est?"
Brutus fumbles around frantically while retching uncontrollably, finds knife stuck in waistband of breechclout and then stabs Caesar multiple times. Caesar, who was innocently eating fried lampreys and thinking about which gladiator he was going to bet on at the arena that afternoon stumbles to his knees and dies, not uttering "Et tu, Brute!", but "Et tu, Lamprey!" He was going for his third when Brutus, who couldn't find a cat, in the heat of the moment chose to, ah, kick Caesar. Which wasn't felisitous at all, at least from Caesar's point of view.
And what was the root cause of the one of the most famous murders of all time? This:
Formica -ae f The act of paramecia mating both sexually and asexually on a table top of dubious quality.
Formica
Formicae
Formicam
Formicae
Formicae
Formica
Formicae
Formicae
Formicas
Formicarum
Formicis
Formicis
The mind just boggles.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
[blue]
Formica
Formicae
Formicam
Formicae
Formicae
Formica
Formicae
Formicae
Formicas
Formicarum
Formicis
Formicis
[/blue]
Where did you get that order, CapK? You guys do everthang upside down there at the bottom of the world? It should be:
Formica
Formicae
Formicae
Formicam
Formica
Formica
Formicae
Formicarum
Formicis
Formicas
Formicis
Formicae
Sheesh!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Dear AnnaS: Lifetime Pronuncation Additions was really what I intended the thread topic to be, although addictions are interesting, too. I started the thread because I'd been wondering about those words that we learn one pronuncation for in our youth, but, by the time you've lived to be as old as I, are overtaken by incorrect pronunciations and, finally, found to be acceptable by those boards of lexicographers. So, these are the pronunciation additions to the dictionary to which I was referring. Sheesh! You done gone and zapped me on Cole Porter yesterday, and you're back "sic"'n the spelling dogs on me today! I am learning to feel the power of the ASP, indeed!  Best regards, DubDub PS: To CapK: Wow! Amazing post up there!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
That, my dear WW, was not intended as a presumptious spelling correction but rather as a sort of internal wordplay, which apparently fell flat on its face. Not the first time, nor will it be the last.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
" Brutus, who couldn't find a cat, in the heat of the moment chose to, ah, kick Caesar. Which wasn't felisitous at all, at least from Caesar's point of view."
Dear CK: If this is a pun, I don't get it. With, or without the apparent typo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
which apparently fell flat on its face
well, FWIW, i find it quite witty.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Faldage and I went to different schools. Sheesh! Nominative
Vocative
Accusative
Genitive
Dative
AblativeSays so, right here in "The Approach to Latin" by Naughton. Onliest school text book I ever failed to hand back ... English, too. You Yanks want to change everything! Bill, "apparent" typo it was. feles -is ( f) - cat. Remember Felix the Cat? I don't, I'm much too young. Learn your Latin vocab! Gymkhana, glad you liked it. I wondered if anyone would get it!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear CK: I did not need reminding of Felix the feline of the silent movies that cost ten cents. But I get lost when Brutus is looking for a cat to "felinate?" Caesar. "Fellate?" That kind of "et"? Too brutish.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Faldage and I went to different schools
Formica
Formicae
Nominative
Vocative
In my school (Hal's Deli) I was taught that the vocative of Formica was Formica.
And I think the barrel racer got my ASp's joke, not yours, CapK.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
"Joy is everywhere! Formiculae, Formicula!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Winner: Best Lines in AWAD Post; 2001.
WhitmanO'Neill for...
"Joy is everywhere! Formiculae, Formicula!"
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,328
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
1 members (wofahulicodoc),
631
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
