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TIME for Dec.10,p 47 uses "fungible" in a way that seems to me the pretentious use of an obscure word when a more common word should have been chosen.
"In Afghanistan, where loyalty is fungible,........."
Here is what WordDectective says about "fungible"
As you can probably gather from that explanation, "fungible" has absolutely nothing to do with
the word "fun," and has no connection to "fungus" despite the involvement of lawyers.
"Fungible" comes from the Latin "fungibilis," which in turn came from the Latin phrase "fungi
vice," meaning "to serve in place of."
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In his worthless word for the day email tsuwm quotes William F. Buckley as saying "People get annoyed when you use words that do not come trippingly off the tongue of Oprah Winfrey...". He (WFB) then proceeds to assault us with the word velleity suggesting that it is the only word to use in a given circumstance. I think that people get annoyed when you use words that less than one tenth of one percent of the educated population have even the vaguest idea of the meaning of. On the other hand, I can remember his interviewing an Irish socialist back in 1970 or thereabouts who ran verbal rings around Mr. Buckley. It was a pure joy to listen to.
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is fungible that obscure a word? i ran into it long, long ago, when i was in my True Crimes reading jag.. this is still a popular catagory of books.. stories about serial killers and -- if memory servers, the word was in a book about a woman who serial killed her own children..and when she ran out, had some more..and repeated the act
and its been featured in comic's in The New Yorker and while that might not be everyday reading matter, it is read by a large portion of the reading public in US, and is considered a general interest magazine. where as true crime stories are general held to be rather low class reading..
the NYer comic had a senior partern in a law firm explaning to a new hire.. "Associates are fungible, partners are not" --
my understanding of the word is, it describes things, that while not identital, can be used interchangeably.
for example, paying for purchase with 4 quarters, rather than a $1 bill (paper). the difference is fungible.. If i ally myself with who ever is currently in power, and alway root for the winning side, my loyalties would be fungilbe.
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broadly, it means interchangeable; but it's another of those law terms which isn't very fungible in ordinary speech.
1832 Austin Jurispr. (1879) II. xlvi. 807 When a thing which is the subject of an obligation+must be delivered in specie, the thing is not fungible, i.e. that very thing, and not another thing of the same or another class in lieu of it must be delivered. Where the subject of the obligation is a thing of a given class, the thing is said to be fungible, i.e. the delivery of any object which answers to the generic description will satisfy the terms of the obligation. 1886 Sat. Rev. 25 Dec. 853 A certain number of persons+do not+regard books as ‘fungible’, but exercise a choice as to the books they read.
I guess you could stretch the point and say that specific loyalties are interchangeable with other loyalties, but yes, why not just say 'changeable'? (or check out Roget if you must: inconstant, fickle, hebdomadal, flaskisable(!), commutable, mutal, protean, shifty, transitive, variable, unstable...)
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While making my matutinal mile march I thought of what I believe is a serious objection to saying loyalty is fungible. There is no limitation in the definition of the number of times the exchange may be made. But I feel very confident that if an Afghan fighter changed sides more than once, something very unpleasant would be done to him when his duplicity was discovered.
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"Fungible" is certainly not exclusively a legal term. It is used in bookkeeping and accounting to differentiate types of inventory, which affect the methods of inventory control. And I thought that the use of "fungible" in the context of Afghan loyalty both appropriate and pithy. [shrug]
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Dear Sparteye: I politely strongly disagree with you. I say again it is bad journalism to use a relatively obscure word with debatable correctness. Apparently you missed the point that fungible things are fungible repeatedly. Any Taliban who defects, and then defects again is going to die unpleasantly. whichever side detects his duplicity.
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How odd, I just finished reading this thread and then heard my mom downstairs explaining the subject to my brother.
I would guess that they're possibly referring to the common citizens, who don't really care who leads because they can still remember the last time the northern alliance was in charge. The cruelties were just as bad.
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Dear wwh:
I'm with Sparteye here. The word, though rare, is pithy, as she observed. And I think it goes beyond what is interchangeable. Function and fungible have the same latinate root: fungi, to perform. With the question of loyalties changing, there's much more involved that what is interchangeable. The change in loyalty brings out a change in performance of functions, actions, and operations. Death could be a consequence of such changes in operations, but fungibility captures the big picture better than interchangeability. Interchangeable seems too light here. Fungible seems more action-packed.
Just my take,
WW
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Dear WW: For the second time, I must politely disagree with you. Again, my first objection is in line with TIME's old slogan: Curt, Clear, Complete. I doubt very much that even ten percent of TIME's readers have encountered the word before. That would be OK in Atlantic Monthly, but not in a news weekly. In the second place, "fungible" involves two quantities which are being exchanged. Defection involves only one.I wondered mementarily if the author was being influence by subliminal recollection of a word TIME publicized almost twenty years ago, when special ammunition used in war game had projectiles that did not damage armored vehicles, but instantly broke into harmless fragments. and were thus called "frangible". It would be a better word for breaking the oath that all soldiers take to be loyal.
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Dear wwh:
Finally, I get your point. However, let's say that fungible were a word most were acquainted with, and, also, let's say the quote had read:
"In Afghanistan, where loyalties are fungible..."
...would that have worked for you?
Or, (and I'm really just kidding here):
"In Afghanistan, where loyalties are both fungible and frangible..."
??
Curious,
WW
P.S. Thanks for the thread, by the way.
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well i agree with you about one thing Dr bill fungible is not a word for Time.. which might or might not be Curt, Clear, Complete, but it most certainly writen to a 6th graders comprehension. and slow 6th grader at that!
i hate that it cost so much.. but i read the economist. it really is a news weekly.. and covers the news of the world.. not just a little bit of it..
i love the NY'er cartoon/cover-- the one that has a vague map, the shows, close up, NY streets 10th Avenue, and looking west.. and as it moves further west, things get vaguer, and vaguer.. it makes fun of NYer's city centeredness...
and i have seen the idea copied.. it doesn't work as well from chicago or LA, but its been done..
but as much as i enjoy the poster, and as much as i think NY is the greatest, when it come to news magazines, i don't want something with a narrow, parochial view.
a long time ago, Time might have been a good news magazine.. but when did it last cover the news in South America? when americans where kidnapped? or killed-- and then once there is nothing that directly effects an identifiable US citizen.. it fall of the map! no coverage!
Oh, something really dramatic, a major earthquake.. but week after week, it seems there is no news at all from most of the world, if Time is to be believed.
I can't say i do more than skim the news about NZ or Ozzie political scandles..or about the oil scandles in nigeria, or the diamond smuggling in angola.. but at least they are covered!
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Let's hear some more opinions about what word might better have been chosen. I haven't been able to come up with one that I am satisfied with. The Taleban fighters were in the beginning fanatically loyal. They have been incredibly brave.
I woulld now re-write the sentence: "To the Taleban, loyalty is now meaningless. All that remains is the traditional compulsion to avoid dishonor.".
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I liked protean from tsuwm's thesaurus list, but that would be too rare.
How 'bout loyalties are chameleonic? Chameleonic would imply protection to save one's skin, amphibious or otherwise.
ww
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Loyalty is not changed into something equivalent, for the Taleban it is dead. All they have left is hate,injured pride and frustration.Obviously many of them must be so depleted of energy all that they want is to go home.
I laughed when I read about Taleban stragglers robbing some of the Pakistani idiots who had come to fight on their sided. Mullah Omar has given "jihad" a bad name, which should be of some help to us when Bush needs to attack terrorists in other countries.
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Let's hear some more opinions about what word might better have been chosen
Moot?
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Dear Jackie: If you are suggesting that the word "moot" could have been used instead of "fungible, I don't quite see how it fits.
1 subject to or open for discussion or debate; debatable
2 not worthy of consideration or discussion because it has been resolved or no longer needs to be resolved
I particularly hope you did not mean the second definition.
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" things, that while not identical, can be used interchangeably." -- Wheat, for example, is a fungible commodity. If you're a trader, any freightcar-ful is the same as any other. Lawyers have nothing to do with it.
The root also has stalks that are even more commonplace. Isn't a "fungo bat," used by baseball coaches to hit fly balls to the outfielders for warm-up, called that because it doesn't really matter which bat is used? Bats are fungible, at least for this purpose.
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Let's hear some more opinions about what word might better have been chosen.
How about "Zelig-like"? The Wall Street Journal used this term in a headline a week or so ago. I confess, I was confused and had to look up "Zelig" in the dictionary. Zelig, in case you don't know (or don't remember), is the name of a character Woody Allen plays in a film about an obsessively insecure person who mirrors the opinions and prejudices of everyone into whose company he stumbles (including the Nazis even tho Zelig is Jewish). I remember seeing the movie but I didn't remember the name "Zelig" in the WSJ headline ... which perhaps makes me unsuitable for readership of the Wall Street Journal. Anyway, does "Zelig-like" work for you, wwh? Incidentally, you have stirred up a very interesting discussion here. I hear your argument about defection not being a true "exchange", and also your argument that a serial defector will be done in after his first defection, but I beg to differ with you, dear wwh, on both accounts. First, a transfer of allegiance in Afghanistan involves reciprocity. It is not unilateral because the new leader absorbs the 'defector' into his ranks. Second, as I understand the culture of the Afghan warrior, changing sides is not a 'defection' and it is not dishonourable. Furthermore, it can be performed serially without punitive consequences. This is so because Islamic warriors in these cultures exalt the myth of the 'strongman', rather like the peoples who exalted Marlon Brando's character in "Apocalypse Now" (based on Joseph Conrad's book "Heart of Darkness"). In this ancient reality, a "strongman" only has virtue while he is strong. Once he loses his strength, he is no longer capable of protecting his followers and he has lost his virtue and with it any claim to leadership. Thus, when the follower of a defeated strongman passes his allegiance over to the conqueror, he is not defecting, he is simply acknowledging the new reality of his tribal community. Years ago, I read that the director of Apocalyse Now studied the works of an anthropologist who spent a life-time investigating the rituals of ancient tribes. When a leader in one of these ancient tribes became weak through age or other infirmity, the leader's weakness threatened the vitality of the tribe. Therefore, any tribesman strong enough to depose the weakened leader by killing him, appropriated the virtue of the fallen leader and resuscitated the vitality of the tribe. (There may be a parallel here with the beehive where the hive is more important than the Queen.) So it is, I suggest, with valiant Afghan warriors who shift their allegiances so effortlessly from one fallen strongman to his conqueror. Power itself is virtue to these people, not the personality which inhabits the power.
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Well, Dr. Bill, I just read through this thread and believe it or not  , I wholeheartedly agree with you! Not only is it too esoteric a word for Time, it is also misused. As for a better word, how about fickle? Oh, and welcome back from the grave, plutarch et alter egos.
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Dear plutarch: I find merit in your discussion of the warlords, who have been surprisingly successful in maintaining their prestige for so many years, that they now are able to recruit some of the defectors When I said many defectors wanted to go home, the fact is few have homes to go to, so need the protection of some warlord, who would make them prove their worth by putting them in the front lines.
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they need the protection of some warlord, who would make them prove their worth by putting them in the front lines
At least they feed the canon fodder in the front lines. It all sounds very medieval, wwh. In feudal times, the serfs swore allegiance to a feudal lord in return for his protection. Protection was the sine qua non of the bargain. No protection. No allegiance.
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And the serf's "loyalty" was not "fungible". He was protected only to the extent that his lord needed him.
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i dunno, The King is Dead!--Long Live the King!--
and for a serf, one overlord was pretty much the same as another. so long as the serf had a place, a bit of food, and could go out his (her) day.. part of their lack of drive might have been poor health, (driven by a hard live, lack of food, and chronic lowgrade infections,) rather than any lack of moral fiber.. but even today, i am patriotic about the United States-- Not Dubya! and that has nothing to do with my dislike of him.. He just is a temporary representative. my feelings of patriotism (and they are deep and real, and recognize that US has been on the wrong side of some issues, ) don't depend on who is president. -- the leadership comes and goes. what ever honor is accorded the president, to some degree, and maybe not enough to use the word fungible, the holders of the office are interchangeable.
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"the holders of the office are interchangeable. "
Dear of troy: Not really. We could not swap Bush for Clinton back again, and it takes four years to make a swap.
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I have to disagree with Bill. "Fungible" is a word I have known for yonks, although I have to admit that I don't remember ever having used it myself. I can't remember where I picked it up, of course, but I would not have raised an eyebrow if I had read it in the article.
And unfortunately, the Afghani mujahadeen seem to change sides with depressing regularity. This is actually a survival trait rather than a death sentence. If your village is overrun by one side, you support that side. If it is then overrun by the other, well, the Vicar of Bray knew what to do. An Afghan peasant may not be rich, but on the average I'd say the stupid ones are dead. From what I've read and heard, this willingness to change sides at very little (or no) notice is accepted by the warlords as a fact of life and death. They have a feudal system of sorts, but no one should make the mistake of assuming that it is based on the European feudal system. It is, as they say, their very own.
I'd say the occupying forces ... er, sorry, I mean peacekeepers will have rather a lot to learn!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Dear CK: Do you mean to say the UK forces who apparently are to support UN in Afghanistan, have a lot to learn?
You do not demonstrate an understanding of "fungible". Desertion is a unilateral decision in no way comparable to the substitution of a hundred Herefords for a hundred Angus of equal weight. Loyalty is not a commodity that can be exchanged back and forth in Afghanistan.
I do not doubt that you had prior knowledge of the word "fungible". That just puts you in the ten percent I said would recognize it. I still say it was a poor choice on that journalist's part.
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Old Father William stated: Do you mean to say the UK forces who apparently are to support UN in Afghanistan, have a lot to learn?
I would say that everyone dealing with Afghanistan will either be in learning mode or ducking mode. The Americans, you will of course say, have nothing to learn ... but they better know how to duck, that's all.
You do not demonstrate an understanding of "fungible". Desertion is a unilateral decision in no way comparable to the substitution of a hundred Herefords for a hundred Angus of equal weight. Loyalty is not a commodity that can be exchanged back and forth in Afghanistan.
I trust you wrote this while suffering from a particularly bad senior moment. I made absolutely no comment on the appropriateness of the use of "fungible" in relation to the article it appeared in because I have not read the article. I merely stated that I knew the word and would not have been surprised to read it. Even writers for Time can be educated, you know, surprising as it may seem.
And loyalty is bought and sold all the time. How do you think pork-barrel politics works? The concept of loyalty is based on there being some compelling reason to adhere to one "faction" or another. If staying alive is a reason to change loyalties, then hey, I can be Catholic this week and Protestant the next along with the best of 'em.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Dear CK: You appear to have a mental block that keeps you from grasping the important feature of "fungible" . Your senile moments are coming early.
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Warning: non-language-related post.
Gee-minently, tsuwm--I...my mind just boggles, reading that.
Their entire country is being destroyed, and these feuding relatives are fighting, among other things, for the power to set up a toll road??? And for that reason, the other side (depending on the day, I guess) is given a victory.
I guess there's a reason we use the expression, "foreign to me". 'Cause I sure don't understand this--their whole value system.
Another thing--why do the media send female reporters in to a place where women are so looked down on??
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Nice one, tsuwm. This is precisely the kind of thing I was talking about in my earlier post. I can well understand Jackie's confusion about the way things are going in Afghanistan. It's not what is considered to be either normal or acceptable behaviour in more conservative societies like the US. Well, not publicly, anyway. But that's the way it is folks. Fungible or infungible ...  And, Jackie, women like to put themselves in harm's way, don't they? I mean, a lot of them are so careless of their own safety that they actually get married!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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An interesting tale, but not one to which the word "fungible" would apply,
in my estimation. The original meaning of "fungible" was that any ton of
wheat could satisfy a debt for which a ton of wheat had been pledged.
I see no way in which loyalty could be such a commodity.
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women like to put themselves in harm's way, don't they? I mean, a lot of them are so careless of their own safety that they actually get married! Yes--I'll have to see what SWMBO has to say about that...
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In reply to:
The original meaning of "fungible" was that any ton of
wheat could satisfy a debt for which a ton of wheat had been pledged.
I see no way in which loyalty could be such a commodity.
bill, while the situation is not precisely analogous, could I get you to agree that (in the article at least) loyalties seem to be bought and sold like a sack of grain?
and as to "the original meaning", well I can only say that I hope to see the day when we convince you that English is a fluid, protean, and vicissitudinous language!
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