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#48029 - 11/18/01 10:08 AM metacognition
Wordwind Offline
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Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
I find it surprising that, among educators, metacognition (directed thinking about thinking) has been a term of art for years, yet the word is rarely included in dictionaries.
Metacognition is supposedly the highest level of thinking.

I wonder what thinking about one's thinking about thinking would be? Meta-meta-cognition? Or mebbe just metameta for short.

Just thought some mention of metacognition should at least make a cursory appearance here on the Meta-words forum.

MM (That's WW upside-down for MetaMeta; please don't make any meathead jokes.)


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#48030 - 11/18/01 03:30 PM Re: metacognition
musick Offline
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I, too, find it suprising that it has been a term of art for years!

Metacognition is supposedly the highest level of thinking. According to what scale?


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#48031 - 11/18/01 04:31 PM Re: metacognition
Wordwind Offline
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Hello, Musick...

Search on Google this way:

"Bloom's taxonomy" metacognition

...You'll find numerous articles and lesson plans about using Bloom to develop higher order thinking skills and matacognition to cause the student to think about thinking at these various levels. It has been suggested by pedagogues that metacognition is the seventh level of Bloom's six. However, it can be argued that the evaluation level six subsumes metacognition.

I post two of the numerous sites below. If you perform the search, I would suggest going to the cached format so you can home in on the relevant material. These writers tend to enjoy writing at length.

http://falcon.jmu.edu/~ramseyil/edpsych.htm

http://www.theschoolquarterly.com/info_lit_archive/learning_thinking/99_ac_aiwac.htm

It's curious to me that metacognition has been in pedagogical literature for years, and the term itself is even taught to students. However, it rarely appears in dictionaries. I don't know when the term was first used.

Best regards,
WW


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#48032 - 11/18/01 05:09 PM metatheory.
musick Offline
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Now that you've posed the question, I'm sure the "first recorded apperance" is forthcoming.

Aside from the joking nature in which I'll make my points (usually), let me first say; Thanks for all the info...

... and now let me add; I'd much rather hear your understanding of *it, the way you put *it into words, and moreover, the tone in your voice doing so. This adds a sense that there will be forever missing from any non-face-to-face communication... this includes theories about *cognition. I'll work up an analogy with music theory if you'd like.

Classification (as such) assumes goals that will eventually (as reality has proven) be realized as meaningless... not that attempts to achieve them don't have value, but.

I can't be any clearer!


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#48033 - 11/18/01 05:53 PM Re: metatheory.
Wordwind Offline
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Muse, I did check my latest edition of AHD and was gloriously gratified in not finding metacognition listed even now.

One problem with education that the pedagogues point out is teachers tend to question at Bloom's lower levels.

Regurgitation of facts. Musical level one puzzle: Name the letters found in scales. Answer: a, b, c, d, e, f, g (We won't get into sharps, flats, and, heaven forbid, "h's" since that would open a can o'worms). Said student at this level has no comprehension; said student is simply regurgitating a through g.

Level two puzzle: Identify the circled pitches on this treble staff. Answer: Said student names the circled pitches.

Level three puzzle: Identify the series of pitches that move in a scale pattern on the staff. Answer: said student perhaps draws a line around the scale patterns and, being a good student, includes no repeated tone or skips.

Level four puzzle: Analyze the similarities between the melody in Example A and the one in Example B. Answer: Student notes that both examples repeat a given phrase four times.

Level five puzzle: The student is instructed to create a melody in which repeated tones are followed by ascending or descending scale patterns. Answer: Student creates the overture to "William Tell." (I'm exaggerating.)

Level six puzzle: Student is instructed to listen to a short piece of music and to evaluate whether the work was too repetitive in use of scale patterns or effective. Student makes the judgments and includes numerous examples to back up the argument.

Metacognitive theory (and I'm not a specialist...just a student myself here) would suggest that at every level, the student is taught how to examine his/her own thinking so that new questions and curiosity about the subject matter are created, efficiency and retrieval are improved, doubts may be recorded and expressed, and an exchange of ideas with other learners will be increased.

In numerous studies, it has been suggested that productive thinkers have a "habit of mind" of examining how they have come to believe what they believe and how, when they are incorrect in their thinking, they are not defeated, but energized to work out their problems. Failures are short-lived and often point the way toward new successes. Metacognitive theory encourages educators to teach their students to examine more closely how they reach conclusions, to analyze their conclusions, to correct mistakes, to ask more questions, to avoid jumping to conclusions, and to enjoy the liberty of changing their minds when the evidence points them in new directions.

This is the subject in a nutshell.

Best regards,
A resident nut, Wordwind


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#48034 - 11/20/01 02:41 PM Re: metatheory.
of troy Offline
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This just got interesting-- I love a computer program --lotus Notes-- Other computer wonks here at AWAD have mentioned in the past--they hate it! in general, Notes is hated. I like it, because i think like Notes.. and can move through in intuitively. I use the same thought process to solve problems as the Notes developers did...

I also recognize, i articulate my thought process-- in many things. When i divorced, i moved out of the family house-- my kids stayed behind with their father.. one day, my son called looking for an odd shaped baking pan-- one he knew i had, but couldn't find-- he was wondering if i took it when i left..

I had to think too-- and asked him where had he looked for the pan. First, he said, with all the baking pans above the wall oven.. when it wasn't there, he looked in cabinet below the wall oven-- a place for odd sized or shaped pans.. as he said this, i remembered where the pan was.. i told him it was in the cabinet with infrequently used things.. as my kids had reached their teen years, i had explained to them how i ordered the kitchen storage.. Glasses were right above the sink-- so you didn't have to take even one step-- Glass to water tap! Dishes, where nearby, right above dishwasher.. No steps in unloading dishwasher.

Pans and skillets stored below cooktop... above cooktop, food that was cooked on the stove..
Oven pan above and below the wall oven.. All baking goods (flour, sugar, baking powder, etc,) in cabinet next to wall oven.. above the counter top that held the Mixer.. (No steps when baking a cake.. everything in easy reach..

Anne Tyler, (Taylor?) author of The Reluctant Tourist, had her characters store their food in the cabinets in alphabetical order.. Apple Pie filling next to canned Artichoke hearts, Peas next to Pumpkin.. to my way of thinking... it was wrong.

my kids complained about their father.. he had re organized the kitchen.. and they had trouble finding things. it wasn't that there wasn't order.. it was that their father was unable to clearly articulate the ordering process he used.. so they could never find anything.. My son hadn't looked in the cabinet of infrequently used items.. but he knew where it was.. the far side of the kitchen.. and awkward to get at.. so perfect for infrequent use!

I tried to do the same thing when ever i work things out.. to not only have an order, but to be able to explain why i solved a problem they way I did-- whether is was organizing the kitchen, or solving a geometry problem..

Dr bill did the same thing once.. explaining how to figure out how long a walk it was to mow a large lawn with a mover that cut a 12 wide swath.. he took the 200 by 300 feet of lawn, and first converted it to a strip-- 1 foot wide.. by 5,000 feet long.. only his problem wasn't near so easy, since he started with acres.. which he converted to feet, and is swath was 18 inches.. (or 1.5 feet..)

but he took was seemed to be a hard problem.. and very quickly explained how you could simplify it.. so much so, i still remember the solution, if not the original dimensions.. (and a good solution is a handy thing to have!)

I am right now in understanding Metacognitive skills? is this what good teachers should be trying to teach--ways of organizing information, that make it easier to figure out solutions? teaching how to kids to learn how they arrived at a solutions.. and learning to test whether or not their solution will solve the current problrem? I guess i had some.. i learned this skill!

_________________________
my other obsession

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#48035 - 11/20/01 05:04 PM Re: metatheory.
Wordwind Offline
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of Troy,

Good to have you on board on this subject. Today in class I told my fourth graders in a recorder class that they would be tested on identifying three notes that they've been playing for four lessons in beginning recorder: b, a, and g on the treble staff.

I reviewed the mnemonic device we use for the lines: Elvis's guitar broke down Friday (e, g, b, d, f) and FACE for the spaces.

I took them through the concept attainment model we'd used for identifying the difference between the appearance of line and space notes.

I finally showed them the three notes we had played in their first four lessons, b, a, and g. I repeated that their test would be a piece they had never seen with 50 notes, all covering b, a, and g in various note values.

Then I asked the question, "Are any of you completely confused? Please don't be embarrassed because this is the time to speak up so I can help you."

One hand slowly went up, then two more, and finally a fourth. I invited those four children up to the white board. The rest of the children talked in the background while I took the four through a couple of drills. It became immediately evident that these children had completely missed the boat on the concept attainment model and had no idea how to recognize the difference between line and space notes. I reworked the explanation of what I had presented in the model, used new language, new metaphors. The light bulbs began to come on, one child at a time. We went through some more drills, and one by one the smiles began to break out on these children's faces. Understanding had been reached. This took about ten minutes from the class's 45 minutes in their weekly lesson, but well worth it.

What is interesting to note about teaching elementary music is I can easily teach children to play by ear with kinetic references. The hard part is for them to make the connection between what they can easily pick up in ear/touch instruction and what they read on the score. But our Virginia Standards of Learning for Music do not stress ear training to the degree of training in reading notation. Both are equally important, I think.

What happened today is an example of working backwards with students to see which concepts have fallen through the cracks. It's a very low level of musical knowledge, but we will not progress to the children's composing original recorder melodies in the spring if I'm not rigorous in working up Bloom's ladder, checking and evaluating all students' understanding.

I especially enjoy showing even these early beginners tricks of the trade: wild fast trills, quick runs up and down the recorder, and quick repetitive rhythm patterns. We get these without much reference to written notation. That will be in place when they write their own compositions in composition groups. My goal in letting my students practice the tricks is to keep their interest high while we work through the challenging task of learning to read the notation. I've observed that tasks that were immediately easy for me as a child are not easy for all children. We each bring different gifts into class, and I feel driven to respect the differences. ( I am the poorest person on the court when it comes to athletic ability, but I sure can reach my athletes by approching music from its physical challenges. "Ten points to anyone in here who can ever play this passage faster than I can!" Boy, does that ever send my physical kids home ready to practice and pulverize their old music teacher at the next lesson or future lessons.)

This has probably been written to an audience of one (myself), but it was fun remembering today's ten minutes of witnessing eureka! points.

Best regards,
Woodwind


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#48036 - 11/20/01 06:07 PM Re: metatheory.
wwh Offline
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Dear WW: I wish my music teacher had been like you. She was an old bat who hated kids.


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#48037 - 11/20/01 06:19 PM Re: metatheory.
Wordwind Offline
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Thanks, wwh, for the compliment. I'm an old bat who likes kids...and especially kidding with kids.

WW


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#48038 - 11/21/01 09:34 AM Re: line and space notes
Faldage Offline
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Now I'm totally confused.

A) How can you not know whether a note is on a line or on a space?

and

2) If there's a musical diffence between line notes and space notes (and not just a graphical diference) what, pray tell, might it be?


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#48039 - 11/21/01 11:35 AM Re: line and space notes
Wordwind Offline
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Faldage:

There's not a musical difference between line and space notes; it's strictly graphical, as you pointed out.

However, when small children learn to read music, if they can recognize how the notehead appears on the line for line notes and how that same notehead appears to be caught in between the lines for the space notes, then they are on their way to reading music better.

Being able to state categorically whether a note is on a line or space leads to numerous, more highly complex notational reading skills, such as recognizing scale patterns, recognizing repeated notes, recognizing intervals, passing tones, chords, and so on.

If a child cannot even look at a note and tell whether it's on a line or space, that child is in deep trouble for ever being able to read notation.

Hope this makes sense. If not, just ask your question in a different way and I'll take a stab at it again.

Best regards,
DubDub


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#48040 - 11/21/01 11:35 AM Re: line and space notes
Wordwind Offline
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Registered: 09/30/01
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Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
Faldage:

There's not a musical difference between line and space notes; it's strictly graphical, as you pointed out.

However, when small children learn to read music, if they can recognize how the notehead appears on the line for line notes and how that same notehead appears to be caught in between the lines for the space notes, then they are on their way to reading music better.

Being able to state categorically whether a note is on a line or space leads to numerous, more highly complex notational reading skills, such as recognizing scale patterns, recognizing repeated notes, recognizing intervals, passing tones, chords, and so on.

If a child cannot even look at a note and tell whether it's on a line or space, that child is in deep trouble for ever being able to read notation.

Hope this makes sense. If not, just ask your question in a different way and I'll take a stab at it again.

Best regards,
DubDub


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#48041 - 11/21/01 12:34 PM Re: line and space notes
musick Offline
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I'm glad I looked to see if WW answered before I posted this... yet I'll leave it in the original form as a *direct answer to you Faldage, and an *interesting study in our different perspectives.

[rant alert]
It is, as you suggested, only a graphical similarity that has *no musical function... except to confuse the student with arbitrary references like the mnemonic devices WW spoke of (which may *reflect musicality, but only a tertiary form of it (literally)... bear with me). These names for notes may help a student bridge the gap of association that so many educators seem to think is necessary, but it builds a permanent bridge that (for the most part) can never be destroyed, and supports a triadic harmonic perspective and *western forms of music that divides cultures (but let's not talk politics). An even larger problem exists in the inferrence (and I know as a fact that many young kids "pick up" on this) that *space notes have similar qualities to other *space notes... possibly (as they search deeper) some intrinsic opposite to *line notes, and this gets *proven (unfortunately mistakenly)over and over again as they learn. Further liguistic descriptions of what this *difference *is are pointless, as they are embedded in each individuals' exposure to the different sounds.

A similar issue occurrs often as a *budding pianist looks at black and white keys and wonders what and why (but let's not start that one).

Now lets get even deeper (I'm puttin on me galoshes fer dis one). All of this "bovine-dropping" is working from a base that (a) *pretends that there is some starting point from which to teach notes (let's just call it a "first" note) - yuk (b) continues to *assume that sounds should be *named by letters (what are they thinking?) and (c) promotes the *ideal that key centers hold some devine reverence... oh, wait, I promised myself to not talk about religion... or was that politics?

I've seen commercials that offer a CD-Rom that claim to "teach you about the computer"... or even more foolish is learning how to play piano (or any instrument for that matter) through your computer... learning the scales and notes I liken to a similar depth (and distraction thereof).

Back to the naming of sounds with letters... this is a cognitive step that (IMHO) is fully unnecessary (however difficult to replace) and has *clearly kept music from evolving into realms of complexities... as language has done. Of course it is the real reason why music is considered the universal language by some, not because it accurately portrays cross cultural constants...

This should shed a little light on what some issues there are... or at least some of the limits that WW is working within as a music teacher. It seems her creativity (which, BTW, I applaud) to take things outside the "box" is the most rewarding part (as it has been for me)... which says a lot about the "box". However, the box does have one overwhelmingly redeeming goal... everyone gets a chance. This one issue, I'll save for a day when it's raining cows (ie. music being turned into a competitive endeavor...) sickens me! (Ask me how I really feel...)


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#48042 - 11/21/01 01:06 PM Re: line and space notes
Faldage Offline
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Back when I learned (self taught) the recorder all I learned of sight reading was note there on page fingers there on recorder. I could "read" music to the extent that if I already knew the tune, I could play it from music on the recorder. This was perhaps mostly because I could never accurately translate the concept of time out of the filled and hollow notes and the little flags.

*space notes have similar qualities to other *space notes... possibly (as they search deeper) some intrinsic opposite to *line notes, and this gets *proven (unfortunately mistakenly)over and over again as they learn.

Then they get whacked up side the head with the bass clef in which the space notes are now line notes and vice versa and how come the e on the bottom of the staff is a line note but the one up top the staff is a space note?


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#48043 - 11/21/01 01:28 PM Re: line and space notes
musick Offline
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Part of the *issue here is that the initial stages of learning music and its notation is within the "pre-whacked" octave to which you referred.

...how come the e on the bottom of the staff is a line note but the one up top the staff is a space note?

I explained this a while back (weren't you listening) when I stated that musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!


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#48044 - 11/21/01 01:41 PM Re: line and space notes
Faldage Offline
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musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!


That one slipped by me. Whereat did you do that? And why would they do something foolish like that? Everybody else starts from zero. We do it with birthdays, wedding anniversaries; we even have started counting years in centureis from zero! When will these musicians get with the program???

No, wait a minim. I know what it is. Music is logarithmic an they ain' no zero in logs!


budding pianist looks at black and white keys and wonders what and why

I think you'll find the black notes are louder than the white notes.


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#48045 - 11/21/01 03:00 PM 11 is one louder...
musick Offline
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Oh you were there... in spirit!

http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=wordplay&Number=44342

... Everyone wants a log, everyone needs a log, everyone loves a log, wonderful wonderful log...

I think you'll find the black notes are louder than the white notes. I blame it all on the soon-to-be-replaced (ahem) well-tempered, logarithmetic degrees of segregation.

...and have you been beleiving the ages musicians have been telling you?


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#48046 - 11/25/01 02:29 PM Re: line and space notes
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!

Let's not be irrational now. (Was that a pun, I'm not sure.)

It wouldn't make any sense for a musician to start counting at zero, and everyone else doesn't start counting at zero. When you play a note, you've played one note, thus you count: one. When you've played no notes your note count is zero, but you don't start counting until you start playing. When you look at notes on a page, you count the number shown. It's just like counting ducks or such, one two three four. If you're going to play four notes, but you start counting at zero, you either say the first note is zero and only end up counting to three, or you start with zero and count to four, in which time you've actually counted 5 numbers. Neither of those make any sense. There's really no use in differentiating between the beginning and the end of a note when in most music, the time between those two points is so small that it doesn't matter. It would just unnecessarily confuse people. Most things like this originated based on what comes most naturally and logically. Starting at zero comes neither naturally or logically in this case.

But I fail to see how this is related to the use of line and space notes.


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#48047 - 11/25/01 04:09 PM Re: Counting from One:Using Some Takt
Wordwind Offline
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This might explain strictly the math of beats in music:

"In **takt, integer values refer to beats, hence the value `2' refers to the second beat. Fractional values refer to moments within beats. For example, the value `3.5' refers to the second half of the third beat. In 4/4 meter, the value `4.75' refers to the last sixteenth of the measure. Up to two digits are permitted following the decimal point."

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:s6Jftl8tFac:www.music-cog.ohio-state.edu/Humdrum/representations/takt.rep.html+"beat"+takt&hl=en

There really isn't a zero in music. The conductor prepares the orchestra before the first sounding instruments play that first beat, but the sound begins on the ictus, or downbeat. That first ictus of the conductor's baton is the visualization of the first beat the conductor intends to be sounded at that point, or very slightly thereafter in that conductors conduct ever-so-slightly ahead of the birth of the beat.

Long ago I remember reading words for the upbeat--and other words related to the beat of the baton, but I failed to learn them. If anyone knows these rare words, I would be very interested in reading them here.

But I thought that takt might be called for here, just as a side point, about how the math of beats appears.

Beat regards,
WoodWind



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#48048 - 11/26/01 01:49 PM Space: a linear frontier
musick Offline
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Let's not be irrational now.... Give me one good reason.

Jazz-O - I will get back to the line/space *explaination later... however, humorous it may be...

I liken your *dilemma to the opposing factions of a) those who celebrated the new millenium on the second after 12/31/1999:23:59:59, and b) those that did so on the second after 12/31/2000:23:59:59... and don't even START the explaination of which one of those were correct. It's been made very clear that a majority *can't be wrong.


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#48049 - 04/19/02 12:16 AM Re: line and space notes
Clyde Gittins Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5
I feel like St Paul [as one born out of time], in coming on this fascinating thread so long after anyone has added to it. Thanks, AWAD, for leaving it up for me to see, however belatedly.

There's not a musical difference between line and space notes; it's strictly graphical, as you pointed out.
There's an operational difference if you play a Wheatstone concertina. [BTW, Wheatstone himself regarded his concertina as much more important than the eponymous Bridge.] The notes on the lines are played with the right hand, and the notes in the spaces with the left. It gets a bit tricky with sharps and flats, and too bad if your 4-part harmony requires 4 notes all on one or the other! [Both thumbs and both little fingers are required to hold the instrument.]

Being able to state categorically whether a note is on a line or space leads to numerous, more highly complex notational reading skills, such as recognizing scale patterns, recognizing repeated notes, recognizing intervals, passing tones, chords, and so on.
Unfortunately my sight-reading skills never got that far. Why, I don't really know: except perhaps in what lessons I had, there was more emphasis placed on mastering the particular instrument I had at the time, and pre-war my parents couldn't afford much. And I can't understand why those skills haven't improved since, despite a fair bit of effort.

This should shed a little light on what some issues there are... or at least some of the limits that WW is working within as a music teacher. It seems her creativity (which, BTW, I applaud) to take things outside the "box" is the most rewarding part (as it has been for me)... which says a lot about the "box".
There's been a huge amount of effort put into inventing new languages for improving communication among peoples. I wonder why there's been so little AFAIK put into improving musical notation? Surely if we were starting from scratch, we could work out a better method?

Long ago I remember reading words for the upbeat--and other words related to the beat of the baton, but I failed to learn them. If anyone knows these rare words, I would be very interested in reading them here.
I think I've seen them, I think I know what book to look them up in, but I wish I knew where in my apartment that book is...
I do recall that if a phrase begins before the down beat, the note(s) before it are called an 'anacrusis' [one or two unstressed syllables prefixed to a verse properly beginning with an accented syllable--WCD 5th Ed].

musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!
And when they get to the end of the bar [measure, in US English] they start over again!




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#48050 - 07/21/02 06:44 AM Post deleted by ewein
ewein Offline
member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 184
Loc: USA

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#48051 - 07/21/02 01:36 PM
arosebyanyname Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 33
Why would you want to? Seems a little nuts to me that you'd want to be with people that don't want to be with you.


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#48052 - 07/21/02 03:09 PM Re:
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
"ewein" has apologized quite adequately for her comparatively minor errors.
She contributed importantly to ending flamewar. I think she is a very
pleasant person, and I welcome her participation here.



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#48053 - 07/21/02 05:04 PM Re:
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
quite adequately

That's only your personal judgment, Bill. I think you'll find yourself in a tiny minority.


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#48054 - 07/21/02 05:17 PM Re:
Vernon Compton Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 273
Loc: NZ
In reply to:

She contributed importantly to ending flamewar


After contributing even more significantly to fuelling it. Not everyone is quite so quick to forgive her perfidy and deceit. She came in here openly lying about who she was, and posted for months in support of her husband's trolling. As an occasional visitor here, I hope that some sense of shame will grant her the good sense to do as she has repeatedly said she would, and stay away for good. Of course, she has yet to show any inclination to keep her word or behave honestly. The more people who make it plain to her just how very unwelcome she is here, the better.


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#48055 - 07/21/02 05:27 PM Re:
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
I don't want to start another flamewar about this. You may have noticed that I
said many times Keiva was not welcome. But I have had many messages from
ewein, and I stand by what I said. I believe I know her better than you do.


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#48056 - 07/21/02 05:44 PM Re:
maverick Offline
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Posts: 4757
I believe I know her better than you do

So you insisted right up to the time when it was proved to you that she had lied about her identity. I too stand by what I said Bill - you seriously underestimate the widespread feelings about this name posting here again (since it will never be clear who is operating the keys), and you risk wrecking the newly re-established degree of accord.

Think again. Then again. Then again. There will be no second chance.


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#48057 - 07/21/02 05:54 PM Re:
armor Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 9
>> Think again. Then again. Then again. There will be no second chance.

That last sentence sounds like a threat.


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#48058 - 07/21/02 06:36 PM Re:
Fiberbabe Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/12/01
Posts: 771
Loc: Portland, Oregon
>>Think again. Then again. Then again. There will be no second chance.

>That last sentence sounds like a threat.

And you, armor, sound suspiciously like Keiva.


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#48059 - 07/21/02 07:03 PM Re:
maverick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
You're right, FB.

But that could only sound like a threat to someone who does not understand much about this forum. oh, yeah - that includes Keiva! :)


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#48060 - 07/21/02 08:16 PM Re:
Happy Birthday consuelo Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 2636
Loc: Caribbean
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=76671

Need I say more? Keiva, go away. You are not welcome here and your writing style will give you away every time.


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#48061 - 07/21/02 08:18 PM Re:
Happy Birthday consuelo Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 2636
Loc: Caribbean
Oh, and take your less than unpleasant wife with you.


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