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#48039 - 11/21/01 11:35 AM Re: line and space notes
Wordwind Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
Faldage:

There's not a musical difference between line and space notes; it's strictly graphical, as you pointed out.

However, when small children learn to read music, if they can recognize how the notehead appears on the line for line notes and how that same notehead appears to be caught in between the lines for the space notes, then they are on their way to reading music better.

Being able to state categorically whether a note is on a line or space leads to numerous, more highly complex notational reading skills, such as recognizing scale patterns, recognizing repeated notes, recognizing intervals, passing tones, chords, and so on.

If a child cannot even look at a note and tell whether it's on a line or space, that child is in deep trouble for ever being able to read notation.

Hope this makes sense. If not, just ask your question in a different way and I'll take a stab at it again.

Best regards,
DubDub


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#48040 - 11/21/01 11:35 AM Re: line and space notes
Wordwind Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
Faldage:

There's not a musical difference between line and space notes; it's strictly graphical, as you pointed out.

However, when small children learn to read music, if they can recognize how the notehead appears on the line for line notes and how that same notehead appears to be caught in between the lines for the space notes, then they are on their way to reading music better.

Being able to state categorically whether a note is on a line or space leads to numerous, more highly complex notational reading skills, such as recognizing scale patterns, recognizing repeated notes, recognizing intervals, passing tones, chords, and so on.

If a child cannot even look at a note and tell whether it's on a line or space, that child is in deep trouble for ever being able to read notation.

Hope this makes sense. If not, just ask your question in a different way and I'll take a stab at it again.

Best regards,
DubDub


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#48041 - 11/21/01 12:34 PM Re: line and space notes
musick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
I'm glad I looked to see if WW answered before I posted this... yet I'll leave it in the original form as a *direct answer to you Faldage, and an *interesting study in our different perspectives.

[rant alert]
It is, as you suggested, only a graphical similarity that has *no musical function... except to confuse the student with arbitrary references like the mnemonic devices WW spoke of (which may *reflect musicality, but only a tertiary form of it (literally)... bear with me). These names for notes may help a student bridge the gap of association that so many educators seem to think is necessary, but it builds a permanent bridge that (for the most part) can never be destroyed, and supports a triadic harmonic perspective and *western forms of music that divides cultures (but let's not talk politics). An even larger problem exists in the inferrence (and I know as a fact that many young kids "pick up" on this) that *space notes have similar qualities to other *space notes... possibly (as they search deeper) some intrinsic opposite to *line notes, and this gets *proven (unfortunately mistakenly)over and over again as they learn. Further liguistic descriptions of what this *difference *is are pointless, as they are embedded in each individuals' exposure to the different sounds.

A similar issue occurrs often as a *budding pianist looks at black and white keys and wonders what and why (but let's not start that one).

Now lets get even deeper (I'm puttin on me galoshes fer dis one). All of this "bovine-dropping" is working from a base that (a) *pretends that there is some starting point from which to teach notes (let's just call it a "first" note) - yuk (b) continues to *assume that sounds should be *named by letters (what are they thinking?) and (c) promotes the *ideal that key centers hold some devine reverence... oh, wait, I promised myself to not talk about religion... or was that politics?

I've seen commercials that offer a CD-Rom that claim to "teach you about the computer"... or even more foolish is learning how to play piano (or any instrument for that matter) through your computer... learning the scales and notes I liken to a similar depth (and distraction thereof).

Back to the naming of sounds with letters... this is a cognitive step that (IMHO) is fully unnecessary (however difficult to replace) and has *clearly kept music from evolving into realms of complexities... as language has done. Of course it is the real reason why music is considered the universal language by some, not because it accurately portrays cross cultural constants...

This should shed a little light on what some issues there are... or at least some of the limits that WW is working within as a music teacher. It seems her creativity (which, BTW, I applaud) to take things outside the "box" is the most rewarding part (as it has been for me)... which says a lot about the "box". However, the box does have one overwhelmingly redeeming goal... everyone gets a chance. This one issue, I'll save for a day when it's raining cows (ie. music being turned into a competitive endeavor...) sickens me! (Ask me how I really feel...)


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#48042 - 11/21/01 01:06 PM Re: line and space notes
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Back when I learned (self taught) the recorder all I learned of sight reading was note there on page fingers there on recorder. I could "read" music to the extent that if I already knew the tune, I could play it from music on the recorder. This was perhaps mostly because I could never accurately translate the concept of time out of the filled and hollow notes and the little flags.

*space notes have similar qualities to other *space notes... possibly (as they search deeper) some intrinsic opposite to *line notes, and this gets *proven (unfortunately mistakenly)over and over again as they learn.

Then they get whacked up side the head with the bass clef in which the space notes are now line notes and vice versa and how come the e on the bottom of the staff is a line note but the one up top the staff is a space note?


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#48043 - 11/21/01 01:28 PM Re: line and space notes
musick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
Part of the *issue here is that the initial stages of learning music and its notation is within the "pre-whacked" octave to which you referred.

...how come the e on the bottom of the staff is a line note but the one up top the staff is a space note?

I explained this a while back (weren't you listening) when I stated that musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!


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#48044 - 11/21/01 01:41 PM Re: line and space notes
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!


That one slipped by me. Whereat did you do that? And why would they do something foolish like that? Everybody else starts from zero. We do it with birthdays, wedding anniversaries; we even have started counting years in centureis from zero! When will these musicians get with the program???

No, wait a minim. I know what it is. Music is logarithmic an they ain' no zero in logs!


budding pianist looks at black and white keys and wonders what and why

I think you'll find the black notes are louder than the white notes.


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#48045 - 11/21/01 03:00 PM 11 is one louder...
musick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
Oh you were there... in spirit!

http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=wordplay&Number=44342

... Everyone wants a log, everyone needs a log, everyone loves a log, wonderful wonderful log...

I think you'll find the black notes are louder than the white notes. I blame it all on the soon-to-be-replaced (ahem) well-tempered, logarithmetic degrees of segregation.

...and have you been beleiving the ages musicians have been telling you?


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#48046 - 11/25/01 02:29 PM Re: line and space notes
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
musicians start counting from 1 instead of zero!

Let's not be irrational now. (Was that a pun, I'm not sure.)

It wouldn't make any sense for a musician to start counting at zero, and everyone else doesn't start counting at zero. When you play a note, you've played one note, thus you count: one. When you've played no notes your note count is zero, but you don't start counting until you start playing. When you look at notes on a page, you count the number shown. It's just like counting ducks or such, one two three four. If you're going to play four notes, but you start counting at zero, you either say the first note is zero and only end up counting to three, or you start with zero and count to four, in which time you've actually counted 5 numbers. Neither of those make any sense. There's really no use in differentiating between the beginning and the end of a note when in most music, the time between those two points is so small that it doesn't matter. It would just unnecessarily confuse people. Most things like this originated based on what comes most naturally and logically. Starting at zero comes neither naturally or logically in this case.

But I fail to see how this is related to the use of line and space notes.


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#48047 - 11/25/01 04:09 PM Re: Counting from One:Using Some Takt
Wordwind Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 6296
Loc: Piedmont Region of Virginia, U...
This might explain strictly the math of beats in music:

"In **takt, integer values refer to beats, hence the value `2' refers to the second beat. Fractional values refer to moments within beats. For example, the value `3.5' refers to the second half of the third beat. In 4/4 meter, the value `4.75' refers to the last sixteenth of the measure. Up to two digits are permitted following the decimal point."

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:s6Jftl8tFac:www.music-cog.ohio-state.edu/Humdrum/representations/takt.rep.html+"beat"+takt&hl=en

There really isn't a zero in music. The conductor prepares the orchestra before the first sounding instruments play that first beat, but the sound begins on the ictus, or downbeat. That first ictus of the conductor's baton is the visualization of the first beat the conductor intends to be sounded at that point, or very slightly thereafter in that conductors conduct ever-so-slightly ahead of the birth of the beat.

Long ago I remember reading words for the upbeat--and other words related to the beat of the baton, but I failed to learn them. If anyone knows these rare words, I would be very interested in reading them here.

But I thought that takt might be called for here, just as a side point, about how the math of beats appears.

Beat regards,
WoodWind



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#48048 - 11/26/01 01:49 PM Space: a linear frontier
musick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
Let's not be irrational now.... Give me one good reason.

Jazz-O - I will get back to the line/space *explaination later... however, humorous it may be...

I liken your *dilemma to the opposing factions of a) those who celebrated the new millenium on the second after 12/31/1999:23:59:59, and b) those that did so on the second after 12/31/2000:23:59:59... and don't even START the explaination of which one of those were correct. It's been made very clear that a majority *can't be wrong.


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