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#4737 - 07/30/00 03:20 PM japanese english english japanese
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
there was some interest in japanese and its connectons with english in other threads.
so i decided to start a thread where all such conversations could take place in one forum.
japanese is a language that absorbs foreign words with ease. but it often adds its own edge to the words it borrows.
english also borrows a lot of japanese words, more than seems obvious at first. of course these words are changed to suit english toungues and prejudices.
let's discuss it all here.


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#4738 - 07/30/00 09:31 PM Re: japanese english english japanese
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
kamikaze; tsunami; obi; bonsai.

And of course, all the brand names.


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#4739 - 07/31/00 03:46 AM Re: japanese english english japanese
Avy Offline
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Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
I would like to share a line I read somewhere - which I will never forget.
"The symbol of a true oriental artist is the Fujiyama - calm without, fire within."
I think this is so beautiful!


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#4740 - 07/31/00 10:22 AM Re: japanese english english japanese
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200

tsunami seems a strange word to borrow when english has a perfectly good one already: tidal wave. tsu means harbour according to a dictionary i once checked. nami is wave.
the mt fuji phrase does sound very japanese.
when i was first here i noticed mountains were called "san". not knowing any japanese at all, i assumed it was the same respectful title as given to people (as in "sakezuki lusy san"). i was very disappointed to discover it was just another reading of "yama", mountain.
most kanji have more than one reading. in this case yama is the japanese reading and san the chinese one.
another time i went skiing with a friend and noticed on the car navigation the kanji for "waterless mountain". pretty pleased that i recognised the kanji i read them to him, all in chinese reading: "suimusan". of course i was wrong on all counts! it should be "mizunashiyama", which probably has a better rhythm.
so while westerners often say "fujiyama", this puzzles japanese who would only ever say "fujisan"
(which is also the name of a really nice beer from asahi!)


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#4741 - 07/31/00 11:45 AM Re: tsunami
tsuwm Offline
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tsunami is a much more definitive word for a huge sea wave caused by a great disturbance under an ocean, as a strong earthquake or volcanic eruption. which is to say, there is nothing "tidal" in this definition; calling this phenomenon a tidal wave is somewhat of a misnomer.


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#4742 - 07/31/00 08:35 PM Re: tsunami
AnnaStrophic Offline
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>>tsunami is a much more definitive word....


Thus spake tsuwm


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#4743 - 07/31/00 09:18 PM Re: tsunami
TEd Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
And one must never forget bushusuru.

George Bush went to Takeshita and the bears just ate him up!

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TEd

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#4744 - 07/31/00 10:47 PM Re: tsunami
tsuwm Offline
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Loc: this too shall pass
>Thus spake tsuwm

why, tsuitainly! nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!


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#4745 - 08/01/00 05:15 AM Re: tsunami
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
i guess tidal wave is a misnomer, but why did people pick that particular misnomer to be changed to a japanese word?

tidal wave is a perfectly good word for a big wave,
just as sunrise is a perfectly good word for the earth turning to reveal the sun.
so i wonder why tidal wave was discarded and who chose tsunami, which literally means harbour wave, in its place?


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#4746 - 08/01/00 06:37 AM Re: tsunami
Jackie Offline

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Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
>>>>tsunami is a much more definitive word....

Thus spake tsuwm


And thus spake the mighty AnnaStrophic! Good one! Though I
don't suppose Tsuwm has quite the same effect as what he's
named after.




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#4747 - 08/01/00 09:38 AM Re: tsunami
tsuwm Offline
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Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
>i guess tidal wave is a misnomer, but why did people pick that particular misnomer to be changed to a japanese word?

when the international community started studying these things I'd guess that they wanted something unique to the phenomenon and the Japanese already had a word that applied to it specifically? I know that in Hawaii they have Tsunami Watches and Tsunami Warnings, just as we have for hurricanes and tornadoes in the U.S. it hasn't been that long that the cause of these things has been known; previously they were thought to just be big "tidal" waves.


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#4748 - 08/01/00 10:17 PM Re: tsunami
Avy Offline
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Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
>tidal wave is a perfectly good word for a big wave,
>just as sunrise is a perfectly good word for the earth turning to reveal the sun.
> so i wonder why tidal wave was discarded and who chose tsunami, which literally means harbour
>wave, in its place?

Perhaps the reason is the habit of the English language to pick words from where it can. (without much thought as to why). I mean, forest was a perfectly good word why did they have to choose the Indian word Jungle?


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#4749 - 08/02/00 05:41 AM Re: tsunami
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
i did a little more finding out about tsunami. there is a word takanami for just a big wave, and the japanese use tsunami for big waves caused by earthquakes. tsu can also mean cliff and shore (but the original meaning may have nothing to do with its current usage).
i think, tsuwm, your explanation sounds reasonable; someone wanted to disabuse us of the notion that these big waves have anything to do with tides. maybe the research was centred in japan, since japan suffers so much from them, and the word was carried over from there?
my next question is:
is there any use for tidal wave anymore?
one more:
does tsunami also mean small waves caused by earthquakes?


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#4750 - 08/02/00 06:20 AM Re: tsunami
Jackie Offline

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Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
>>forest was a perfectly good word why did they have to choose the Indian word Jungle?

Avy--I never knew 'jungle' came from India. Thanks. I can only guess that other English-speaking cultures have the same difference in meaning that we do.

If I see the word jungle, I think of the very heavy, lush, tangly green growths in tropical areas, usually heavy with humidity.

I think of a forest as being primarily a very large area covered with mostly trees. There may or may not be any underbrush to impede movement, but where there is, it won't
be as impassable as the undergrowth can be in a jungle.
And I'd say there usually isn't as much humidity, because if there were, the forest would probably be a jungle!




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#4751 - 08/02/00 07:34 AM Re: tsunami
Avy Offline
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Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
Jackie I like your idea of colouring the reference


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#4752 - 08/02/00 09:45 AM okay
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
there is a word in japanese "daijoubu" that means "okay".
this word is used all the time and is one of the first words new speakers - and japanese kids - learn.
but japanese has borrowed "okay" in a big way. it can be used pretty much interchangably with daijoubu.
the emphasis is on the second syllbale, and it is often repeated (i think i mentioned before that japanese has a lot of words repeated twice for effect).
so you hear a lot of men saying "okeh okehh" to mean "that's fine".
interestingly the word used when assisting a car back out is "orai" from "all right", the only use of this english word i know.
how do other languages use "okay"?


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#4753 - 08/02/00 10:03 AM Re: tsunami
tsuwm Offline
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>s there any use for tidal wave anymore?

sure... the Casual Observer who can't be bothered to learn how to use tsunami!


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#4754 - 08/02/00 10:36 AM Re: okay
Rubrick Offline
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Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 679
Loc: Somewhere outside New York
In reply to:

the emphasis is on the second syllbale, and it is often repeated (i think i mentioned before that japanese has a lot of
words repeated twice for effect).
so you hear a lot of men saying "okeh okehh" to mean "that's fine".


Or 'moshi moshi' when answering the phone.....


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#4755 - 08/02/00 12:35 PM Re: tsunami
TEd Remington Offline
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>If I see the word jungle, I think of the very heavy, lush, tangly green growths in tropical areas, usually heavy with humidity.

As do I, Jackie, but interestingly enough, the word jungle derives from a Hindi word jangal, wasteland, which comes itself from the Sanskrit word Jangala, meaning wild or arid. So somewhere along the line there was a change of almost 180 degrees! Odd.


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#4756 - 08/02/00 12:41 PM Re: tsunami
Jackie Offline

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Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
the word jungle derives from a Hindi word jangal

Is this also where the word jangle comes from?


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#4757 - 08/02/00 09:21 PM Re: tsunami
Avy Offline
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Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
> jangal, wasteland, which comes itself from the Sanskrit word Jangala, meaning wild or arid.

Gosh that is news to me. I got to go check that up. Jungle is derived from a sanskrit word as all the north Indian languages are (South indian languages are derived from Tamil). But I really don't think the word originally meant wild or arid. But I could be wrong ...

jun·gle ( jungÆgÃl), n.
1. a wild land overgrown with dense vegetation, often nearly impenetrable, esp. tropical vegetation or a tropical rain forest.
2. a tract of such land.
3. a wilderness of dense overgrowth; a piece of swampy, thickset forestland.
4. any confused mass or agglomeration of objects; jumble: a jungle of wrecked automobiles.
5. something that baffles or perplexes; maze: a jungle of legal double-talk.
6. a scene of violence and struggle for survival: The neglected prison was a jungle for its inmates.
7. a place or situation of ruthless competition: the advertising jungle.
8. Slang. a hobo camp.
[1770–80; < Hindi jangal < Pali, Prakrit jangala rough, waterless place]

Ted you're right! Well - one lives and learns.

In this defination it says that the original word comes from languages Pali and Prakrit - them - I know a bit about. They were people's languages round about the time of Gautam Buddha and earlier. Sanskrit was always the language of learned and not spoken by the common people. And so the language Buddha preached in was Pali. Of course nobody speaks Pali in India anymore. And sankrit is also not spoken by the common people - although it not as dead as Pali. India has 15 major languages and some 700 or more dialects. (numbers off the top of my head, subject to correction) You have to be multi-lingual in India to get by. Almost every Indian knows at least 3 languages. I really don't know how a waterless place got to mean what it does (a forest) even in Hindi. Maybe the chief Anu would know?



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#4758 - 08/02/00 10:24 PM Re: tsunami
Avy Offline
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Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
>(South indian languages are derived from Tamil).
That's not right : It is thought that the Dravidian languages are derived
from a language spoken in India prior to the invasion of the Aryans c.1500 B.C.


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#4759 - 08/03/00 11:18 AM Re: okay
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
rubrick,
moshi moshi is from very polite japanese.
hello, i think, was very casual, and became the common greeting after it was chosen as the telephone word. is that right?


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#4760 - 08/09/00 12:54 PM free
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
there is an institution in japan called "nomihodai".
this means "all you can drink". it's very popular with young people. you pay usually about 20 bucks and get an hour or two of continuous beer, cocktails, whisky, nihonshu etc. the cocktails are just syrup mixes with soda of course. but you used to get a full bottle of whisky if you asked - recently just one glass at a time.
the interesting point is that it is often written as "free drink" in english. while i can understand free drink as the general "nomihodai" concept, when it comes to the menu that says "free drinks" it starts to sound like i don't have to pay at all.


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#4761 - 08/10/00 02:09 AM Re: jungle
wsieber Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1026
Loc: Switzerland
> I really don't know how a waterless place got to mean what it does (a forest).
If we place ourselves back in history to a time where the main signification of "nature" was "the enemy of man", the menacing surroundings, I think we can understand this. Jungle was simply the place where you could not go. It mattered little if this was because of lack of water or impenetrable and useless brush. Nowadays of course, we want to protect the jungle from becoming arid wasteland, and long for the lost paradise called "nature". Words arise from OUR INTERACTION, as humans, with the outside world.


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#4762 - 08/10/00 05:24 AM Re: tsunami
johnjohn Offline
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Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
What exactly is the difference between Hindi and Hindustani? i have recently seen them used in apposition to each other.
JJ


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#4763 - 08/10/00 07:57 AM Re: tsunami
TEd Remington Offline
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Posts: 3467
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>What exactly is the difference between Hindi and Hindustani?

Hindi is a group of vernacular Indic dialects as well as the literary and official language of Northern India.

Hindustani is a group of Indic dialects that includes Urdu and Hindi. Also a native of Hindustan.

Hindustan was a warning that Oliver frequently shouted to his partner.

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#4764 - 08/11/00 01:02 AM Re: jungle
Avy Offline
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Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
Wseiber > "Words arise from OUR INTERACTION, as humans, with the outside world." Absolutely.

JJ > They are not one and the same. Hindi is what we speak in India, and Hindustani was what the hijackers who hijacked an Air India flight recently, spoke amongst each other. That is all I knew which was a shame so Il'dIU. The URL which talks of this at length is : http://adaniel.tripod.com/hindustani.htm The gist is this : Hindustani was a language of the subcontinent before Partition and originating from the time of the Moghuls (Muslim invaders from present day Afghanistan). After partition the language was split into two languages Hindi and Urdu. Hindi leaning more toward Sanskrit and Urdu towards Persian. Hindi became the language of India and Urdu of Pakistan. Apparently Hindustani has survived in some parts in and around the Kashmir Valley. It could be the original Hindustani or some form of it but it is neither pure Urdu or Hindi. And that is what the hijackers spoke.

Ted > "Hindustan was a warning that Oliver frequently shouted to his partner." Huh..?




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#4765 - 08/11/00 01:31 PM Re: jungle
TEd Remington Offline
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Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
>>Ted > "Hindustan was a warning that Oliver frequently shouted to his partner." Huh..?

"(Be)hind you, Stan!"

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TEd

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#4766 - 08/13/00 07:09 AM Re: tsunami
Bridget Offline
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Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
>tsu can also mean cliff and shore< (as well as harbour)

The character used for 'tsu' in Japanese is 'jin' in Chinese and means 'ford', as in a place you cross the river or a place of shallow water.
I've always thought of tsunami as being 'ford and wave' - because all the water in front of the wave is sucked up into it.

This makes more sense to me than any of the other meanings, although I can't find 'tsu' as a ford in my Japanese dicitonaries either, William. Do you know someone with a classical Japanese background you could ask?


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#4767 - 08/13/00 07:12 AM Re: okay
Bridget Offline
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Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
>moshi moshi<

Which is used in a standalone way to answer the telephone and (as far as I know) for nothing else.
But 'moshi' on its own means 'if' and I knew various Japanese who delighted in picking up the phone and announcing into it 'if if'...


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#4768 - 08/13/00 07:16 AM Re: tsunami
Bridget Offline
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Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
>hurricanes and tornadoes in the U.S.<

While we're on the subject of weather, what distinguishes a huricane from a tornado from a typhoon from a cyclone?

(and BTW typhoon is another Chinese word - big wind)


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#4769 - 08/13/00 07:20 AM english japanese english
Bridget Offline
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Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
'Walkman'

I believe the word was coined by a Japanese engineer at Sony. From two English words, obviously. It has now come back into the English language, with a meaning you would be hard pressed to establish from its constituent parts. Now that's what I call cross-fertilisation!


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#4770 - 08/13/00 01:12 PM Re: tsunami
tsuwm Offline
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without getting into the meteorological finepoints (which you could look up :), cyclone is the generic term for the wind pattern, typhoon and hurricane are regional names for tropical cyclones, and tornadoes are land-based.


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#4771 - 08/14/00 09:13 AM Re: tsunami
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
Bridget,
i tried finding out about tsunami but no one seems to know. often these kanji have ancient origins that don't necessarily mean in compounds what they mean by themselves.

another example is your typhoon, which doesn't mean big wind. the "tai" is the same tai as in sen"dai" and "tai"wan.
just why this kanji, connected with wind means typhoon, i will try to find out.


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#4772 - 08/14/00 09:18 AM Re: okay
william Offline
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Posts: 200
i've got a feeling the "if if" thing was a joke. moshi moshi comes from "moushimasu", an old way of saying "shaberimasu", like "i'm talking". the same moushi comes up in "moushiwakenai", which you probably heard a few times.
on a sillier note did you ever notice that if you answer the phone "washing machine!" in japan, no one notices?


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#4773 - 08/14/00 09:27 AM Re: english japanese english
johnjohn Offline
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Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
<<It has now come back into the English language, with a meaning you would be hard pressed to establish from its constituent parts.>>

Walkman is a registered trade mark of the Sony Corp - its a bit naughty to use it when you mean "portable personal stereo". Not quite as elegant I agree. Sorry, didnt mean to be a trademark-Nazi, but I don't think that Walkman has yet gone the way of refrigerator, cellophane, etc, and become generic.


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#4774 - 08/14/00 09:32 AM Re: english japanese english
johnjohn Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
Thanks Ted and Avy for the Hindi v Hindustani point


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#4775 - 08/14/00 11:43 AM typhoon
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
the best i could do was this:
http://www.bibliomania.com/Reference/HobsonJobson/data/947.html#typhoon
chinese and japanese often use "ateji", kanji that follow the sound rather than the meaning.


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#4776 - 08/15/00 07:28 AM Re: okay
paulb Offline
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Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 460
Loc: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
<on a sillier note did you ever notice that if you answer the phone "washing machine!" in japan, no one notices?>

William, since people seem to have stopped listening anyway, my guess is that you could answer "washing machine" in any country and no one would notice.

By the way, did you hear the one about the phone being answered with: "Hello! This is the fridge; the answering machine is on holidays."


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#4777 - 08/15/00 11:52 PM Re: okay
Jackie Offline

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Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
>>By the way, did you hear the one about the phone being answered with: "Hello! This is the fridge; the answering machine is on holidays."

No, I haven't heard that one.
But if the answering machine picks up, the caller can say,
"Is your refrigerator running? You'd better go catch it".


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#4778 - 08/16/00 06:03 AM Re: tsunami
Bridget Offline
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Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
>another example is your typhoon, which doesn't mean big wind. the "tai" is the same tai as in sen"dai" and "tai"wan<

William, you're right and I'm wrong - teach me to post without checking my facts!

I just looked up typhoon in my English-Chinese dictionary and interestingly enough it shows the character as in 'tai'-wan, BUT with the addition of a wind radical. So the one in day-to-day use is just a simplification.

Neither of my Chinese-English dictionaries shows this character, but my Japanese one (Nelson's) does. Curiouser and curiouser.

..I used to have a marvellous thing called just 'Karlgren', which showed the derivation (including three to six stages of character development over the years) and classical Chinese pronunciations of characters, along with all their ancient meanings. It was just a heap of photocopies - not sure if the original was ever published - I'll try to dig through my chests and see if it has stuck with me through my travels.

(BTW yes, I knew 'if if' was a joke.)


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#4779 - 08/16/00 12:07 PM Re: tsunami
william Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
funny thing is, typhoon is a big wind! so that IS what it means in a way, but i can't find out why! japanese does tend to simplify chinese characters doesn't it, as well as take combinations as they are. i don't know any chinese at all (and not that much japanese!) so these things are tough!
ne


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#4780 - 08/16/00 12:38 PM Karlgren
TEd Remington Offline
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Re karlgren

I punched Karlgren Chinese into Google and came up with a bunch of web sites.

Example

www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/deall/chan.9/articles/period-a.htm

His first name was Bernhard.

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TEd

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#4781 - 08/16/00 02:09 PM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
AnnaStrophic Offline
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OK, y'all Nipponophones (I made that up, someone pls correct me): the Japanese Pokemon (movie, cartoon, trading cards) is a big deal among kids in the US. I was told the name comes from Pocket Man, meaning small person. Anything to do with Walk Man? And is this story true?

And by the way, how did we come up with the term animé to mean Japanese animation?

And BTW2, johnjohn, for me 'Walkman' has become generic. I wouldn't know what else to call it..... *wandering off, wondering what the plural of Walkman is*.....


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#4782 - 08/16/00 02:26 PM Pokemon
TEd Remington Offline
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I was told that it is Jamaican in origin, and was descriptive of an ambler, also known as a (slow)poke mon.

All seriousness aside (I LOVE that phrase!) pokemon is derived from Pocket Monster.

Walkman is singular only. After all, you can only use one at a time.

Cf. mongoose:

I have two mongeese.

No, I have two mongooses.

Dammit.

I have a mongoose. And, oh yes, and I have another one.

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TEd

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#4783 - 08/16/00 02:33 PM Re: Pokemon
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Loc: lower upstate New York
extraordinarily edifying, Mr Ted


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#4784 - 08/16/00 02:51 PM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
tsuwm Offline
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>And by the way, how did we come up with the term animé to mean Japanese animation?

a very good question, it being French for animation. and while we're engaging in BTWs, one of the reasons that this particular art form is so popular with young American males supposedly is the absence of political correctness -- which brings us full circle back to Walkman....


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#4785 - 08/17/00 05:45 AM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
Bridget Offline
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Loc: Sydney Australia
"And by the way, how did we come up with the term animé to mean Japanese animation?"

What is this I see before me? A question that is not only on track with the thread but that I can answer? Quick, I'll jump in before william gets on-line...

The Japanese adopted the word animation from English. Transliterated into Japanese writing and then retransliterated (?!?) back into English, it would spell a-ni-me-sho-n. But that's all too much of a mouthful so the Japanese abbreviated it to a-ni-me. And when it then came back into English, in order to represent the 'me' as a full separate syllable rather than an add-on consonant plus silent e, it picked up an accent.
See what I mean about English-Japanese-English? Cool, isn't it?


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#4786 - 08/17/00 05:49 AM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
Bridget Offline
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Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
>the Japanese abbreviated it <

Something they do a lot. Compare Pokemon earlier. This is probably now the most famous example, although the one that always used to get quoted when I was learning Japanese was wa-pu-ro.


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#4787 - 08/17/00 06:38 AM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
johnjohn Offline
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Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
<Walkman>
Well if it's going to be generic it's just got be "Walkperson".............

(or should that be in the PC thread.....)

(or should it be "TransportPerson" so as not to offend against people unable to walk.........)


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#4788 - 08/17/00 06:43 AM Re: Pokemon
johnjohn Offline
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Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
<I have a mongoose. And, oh yes, and I have another one.>

"My mother thinks I'm mad because I like pancakes"
- "There's nothing mad about that, I like pancakes too"
"Really? Do you want to come up and see my collection??"

[JJ goes off chuckling softly....."



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#4789 - 08/17/00 09:41 AM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
william Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
thanks bridget!
yes, there are so many abbreviated words in japanese. wapuro (word processor), pasocom (personal computer), no-to (notebook computer), ruku (rucksack), iemon (yellow monkey - pop group)...

abbreviation is an art form. it even depends on the area. in sendai mcdonalds is "maku" but in other parts of japan it's "makudo" or something.

i remember being amazed that sydneysiders called orange juice "o.j.", and potato cakes "scallops". how do you tell the difference between real scallops and potato cakes?


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#4790 - 08/17/00 09:48 AM Re: Walkman/Pokemon?
william Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
karaoke is another abbreviation, but i think this is famous.
it apparently means "empty orchestra". the kara is the same as "kara"te -"empty" hand.
oke is from o-kesutora.
this one has always sounded far fetched to me.


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#4791 - 08/17/00 05:34 PM Re: gained in the translation
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
Bridget,
thank you for that! I too enjoy the foibles of back-and-forth translation (try altavista's babelfish). What follows is slightly off-topic, since it involves Hungarian and not Japanese, but for those who have not yet seen the Budapest interview with Madonna (while she was filming "Evita") as extrapolated by Gary Trudeau in Time magazine, I offer this link (not for the weak of heart):

http:// http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1996/dom/960520/essay.html


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#4792 - 08/29/00 10:58 AM japanese verbs
william Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
just wanted to share some interesting verbs from japanese with you.
often a verb is made with a "ru" ending, meaning a kanji with a "ru" sound tacked on the end. the "ru" is the part that changes with tense. in this way, verbs are quite distinctive sounds (unlike english) and so can be created easily.
a mainstream one using a foreign word is "saboru". the "sabo" comes from sabotage, and the verb means to wag school or to bludge at work.
some newer ones not in dictionaries are "tabaru" to smoke, "copiru" to make a photocopy, and "memoru" to take a memo.
to me, that is linguistic wizardry.


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#4793 - 08/29/00 11:13 AM Re: japanese verbs
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
>linguistic wizardry

but this smacks of the wlatsome verbing that goes on in English (to wit, productize) where perfectly serviceable words already exist (i.e., produce).


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#4794 - 08/29/00 12:28 PM Re: japanese verbs
william Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
>>this smacks of the wlatsome verbing that goes on in English

ha ha ha!
you know i don't object to "verbing" in english, as long as it's not done with self importance.
there are certainly some people who object to this in japanese too. it's hardly "pure" japanese.
i guess the really useless inventions will die, and the wizardric ones will survive
(and live to become "pure" in a future time when conservationists object to their being changed to vulgarities)!


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#4795 - 08/29/00 02:04 PM Re: japanese verbs
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
What in the world are 'wag' and 'bludge'. please?
And, wlatsome?


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#4796 - 08/30/00 06:48 AM Re: japanese verbs
paulb Offline
addict

Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 460
Loc: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
< wag school or to bludge at work>

wag = to absent yourself from school unofficially

bludge = to loaf, to impose on someone, orig. to act as a harlot's bully [Sidney Baker, The drum: Australian character and slang]


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#4797 - 08/31/00 12:41 AM Re: japanese verbs
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
So bludge is what the more violent pimps or ponces do?

Given all the words the spellcheck doesn't know, how come it knows a word like Ponchartrain?

Bingley
_________________________
Bingley

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#4798 - 08/31/00 11:15 AM Re: japanese verbs
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
>wag = to absent yourself from school unofficially

so if you don't have an aegrotat or an exeant, you wag it?


wlatsome = an old word for loathsome

Murder is ... wlatsom and abhominable to God. - Chaucer


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#4799 - 09/01/00 02:49 AM Re: japanese verbs
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
From Dickens's "Dombey and Son", chapter 22:

'My misfortunes all began in wagging, Sir; but what could I do, exceptin' wag?'

'Excepting what?' said Mr Carker.

'Wag, Sir. Wagging from school.'

'Do you mean pretending to go there, and not going?' said Mr Carker.

'Yes, Sir, that's wagging, Sir.'

Bingley
_________________________
Bingley

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#4800 - 09/01/00 06:20 AM rambo
Bridget Offline
addict

Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
Relevant to absolutely nothing before in this thread, but maybe someone here can help me. Where did Sylvester Stallone get the name Rambo for his character from? Is it related to the Japanese word rambo, or just a bizarre coincidence?

I'd been in Japan for over a year before I heard the phrase 'rambo unten', which I still think is most graphically - hence best - translated as 'rambo driving'!


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#4801 - 09/01/00 07:19 AM Re: japanese verbs
paulb Offline
addict

Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 460
Loc: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
<so if you don't have an aegrotat or an exeant [sic. exeat], you wag it?>

thanks, tsuwm, and Bingley, Dickens and Dombey [sounds like a legal firm] for further elucidation on the art of 'wagging'.




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#4802 - 09/01/00 09:35 AM Re: japanese verbs
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
>exeant [sic, exeat]

where was me spellchecker on that one? <GRIN>

actually®, the OED has both spellings and our own spellchecker accepts only exeant!!


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#4803 - 09/01/00 03:02 PM Re: rambo
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
>>Where did Sylvester Stallone get the name Rambo for his character from?

Well, folks, I get the stupidity award for the day (month?).
Went to about six websites, and guess where I was sent for the answer??
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Sep 14 00:03:05 EDT 1997
Subject: A.Word.A.Day--rambo
X-Bonus: The greatest healing therapy is friendship and love. -Hubert Humphrey

Ram.bo n. [From John Rambo, the hero of David Morrell's novel First Blood
( 1972) and a subsequent movie] An extremely aggressive person who feels
no qualms about defying rules, regulations, or the law in order to right
a perceived wrong.

Letters., Time, 05-26-1997, pp 12+.
"Ecuadorians expect to see Fujimori acting like a democratic
President, not the Rambo of Peru."


This week's theme: eponyms derived from works based on fiction.



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#4804 - 09/03/00 05:42 AM Re: rambo
Bridget Offline
addict

Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
Jackie, you did better than I did searching the web - maybe because I looked generally and ended up with the film rather than the word.

Anyway, thanks for your research. I have now searched on Morrell and Rambo to come up with the following:
"The name Rambo came about when Morrell's wife brought in some apples for the author, at the time he was struggling to find a name for his character... the apples were a rare variety named "Rambo"! This seemed to fit perfectly and a modern day movie legend was born."

The Japanese / Chinese characters translate as 'chaos' and 'violence'. To think that Morrell stumbled on such an apposite name merely through an apple!

What is it about apples anyway? While we're at it I should mention that the Beatles called their recording company Apple because it is Ringo in Japanese. Add in Biblical references and the apple is clearly one significant fruit!


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#4805 - 09/03/00 09:46 AM Re: rambo
william Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
the word "rambou" came up, by the way, in class yesterday. a student asked me if the buttons on american vending machines are big because americans hit them in a "rambou" way.

didn't really know how to answer that one!


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#4806 - 09/03/00 01:28 PM tsunami
william Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 200
just heard this on bbc world news:

"...a three metre high tidal wave rolled down the river.."



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#4807 - 09/03/00 05:30 PM Re: rambo
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
. Add in Biblical references and the apple is clearly one significant fruit!

Which raises an almost totally unrelated question - why do most Christians assume that the fruit was an apple? As I read it, the Genesis account doesn't appear to specify what type of fruit was involved. I did read somewhere that some Islamic traditions have the fruit being a banana, though I am unable to comment on the veracity of that statement.



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#4808 - 09/04/00 04:24 AM Re: japanese verbs
johnjohn Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
<but this smacks of the wlatsome verbing that goes on in English (to wit, productize) where perfectly serviceable words already exist (i.e., produce).>
I have to say that working in a service sector industry the word "productification" has a different sense from "production"; the former being used roughly in the sense of to convert what was a human and individually based service into an off-the-shelf one-size-fits-all product. I don't know what the cognate verb is, its never used, but it would logically be "productify", though "productize" sounds somehow more appropriate .


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#4809 - 09/07/00 02:25 AM Re: tsunami
Bridget Offline
addict

Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
"...a three metre high tidal wave rolled down the river.."


Now this I baulk at! How can a wave rolling down a river be tidal? Shame on the BBC!


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#4810 - 09/08/00 01:58 AM Re: tsunami
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
Perhaps the river flowed South to North?

Bingley
_________________________
Bingley

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#4811 - 09/08/00 02:35 AM Bores
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981
Tidal Waves in rivers: I assume they were talking about something like the Severn Bore which is popularly known as a tidal wave. (not sure about the "down" part, unless it was on its way back to the sea, having hit a barrier of some kind)

According to the Environment Agency (the government department with responsibility for water and waterways):
"A tidal wave, or bore, occurs in the lower reaches of a few rivers during high tides. For a bore to form, a considerable rise in tide is needed in a converging channel with a rising bed, forming a funnel shape. These conditions occur in the lower reaches of the River Severn, forming the Severn Bore.The Severn Estuary experiences the second highest tide anywhere in the world, with a range which can be in excess of 14.5 metres. Under the most favourable conditions, the Severn Bore may reach two metres in height. Opposing winds or high freshwater levels can considerably reduce the height and delay the time of arrival, whereas a following wind can increase the height and advance the time.
The average speed of the bore is approximately 16 kilometres per hour." Here is a picture: http://members.tripod.com/~BoreRidersClub/NEW100.jpg

An excellent site explaining the phoenomenon:
says: "People often erroneously assume that a bore is caused by the tide itself. A bore occurs as part of the tide - it is in fact (as will be outlined below) the wave(s) at the head of the incoming tide when it has entered an estuary - and hence cannot be caused by the tide. Another fatal error is to describe the bore as a 'tidal wave'. 'Tidal wave' refers to any surge of the sea occurring through factors independent and mutually exclusive of the tide (especially meteorological disturbances or earthquake). Hence a 'tidal wave' (tsunami or seiches) is not a tide and therefore cannot be associated with a bore." http://members.tripod.com/~BoreRidersClub/Theory.html



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#4812 - 09/08/00 05:59 AM Re: Bores
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Jo--
As with Tsuwm, I am floored, stunned, and in awe: how do
you find these things??
Grateful, too! This was fascinating!


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