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Michael Quinion has reported that “Many people responded to the question about an Irishwoman in New York who regretted that she had to "pay the black penny" for something, that is, full price. Unfortunately, nobody was able to provide firm information…"http://www.worldwidewords.orgDoes anyone here have any suggestions or observations?
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Dear maverick:Good to see your new title, which fits you better than it does me. Good to see a post about words for a change. I wondered if "pay the black penny" might mean pay the black market price. I could not find anything on the Internet to support the idea.
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if "pay the black penny" might mean pay the black market price.
Excellent, Dr. Bill! Makes sense to me. Oh--I just thought of something else: could it have something to do with the actual color of money, either here or in Ireland?
A chemical change, maybe, the way copper turns green? I don't know anything about Irish money.
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Dear maverick: your URL was not helpful in finding Quinion's discussion, if any, of "pay the black penny".
I went to a good bit of trouble and was not able to locate it. I'm beginning to wonder if archie is monkeying with your computer again. Or can a cockroach monkey?
Mostly I wondered if archie had somehow gotten confused by the voluminous Internet discussions of the "Penny Black" .
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Dr. Bill, the black penny query was raised in a new feature in Michael Quinlon's newsletter where he throws open to readers questions he's been unable to answer. I think it was actually the first one he did this with. This feature doesn't seem to have made it on to the site, though there is a bit of a time lag between items appearing in the newsletter and their appearance on the site.
Bingley
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Yes, Mr B saith soothly Bill. I quoted the basic site ref without checking the exact location of any resource - sorry.
FWIW, I had wondered if it could relate to the old habit of placing pennies on the eyes of a corpse - so that would be the last coin 'paid' by anyone, giving a meaning something like "I'll be dead before I pay full retail price for ~ !". However, I have nothing but surmise to base it on!
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The URL below takes you to the original quote, Scroll way down to number 6, the second paragraph starting with "Judith Rascoe". I did not find any additional help by doing so. http://www.worldwidewords.org/backissues/sampleissue.txt
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Mav:
Could it be so simple as the act of paying out one's last penny, the one found in the ashes in the fireplace?
TEd
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I found this fragment: The Black Penny was believed to be useful in curing mental disorders in cattle [mad cow disease!?] and was often borrowed by local English farmers for its supposed healing powers. The Black Penny was a coin belonging to the Turnbull family. To function properly, the coin had to be immersed into water that ran in a southerly direction; that water was then given to the sick animal to drink. The coin was smaller than an ordinary penny, but thicker. It was made of copper and zinc and had a raised rim. It was lost about 1827.
if this is connected, I'd think that you'd only spend this as a last resort.
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there's light at the end of the carpal tunnel! Where did you find this, tsuwm?
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it seems to be an excerpt from some sort of classwork/assignment; the site was garbaged up with the characters you get with some foreign language sites. I won't even attempt to give the link here, as it goes rocketing off automagically to some secondary site and I only was able to copy what I did by interrupting the original transfer just before the end. you can find it your own se'f by googling:
"black penny" origin
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In “common” Québec French we call the one-cent coin "une cenne noir" - a black penny. Pennies used to become black with age. When a single penny used to be worthwhile currency, a poor person would have tried to save his pennies - blackening with age - to be able to buy something.
Our coins are identified by the quantity of pennies. For example, we don't say a quarter or a dime, we say "do you have a twenty five pennies" or "a ten pennies".
We use an expression "pay to the last black penny" (payer jusqu'à la dernière cenne noir) when we want to convey that we paid something in full (what we owed is completely paid back) Oh, it is important to add that this is usually said when there is some argument as to whether the debt was paid...like when somebody says "Eugene says you never gave him his ten bucks back."
We also say "it cost me to my last black penny," (ça m’a coûté jusqu’à ma dernière cenne noir) to mean it took all the money we had to buy something - we don't even have a meager penny left.
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Aha, bel--my theory was right! (At least where you live!)
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Here, US'ns would call that a red cent.
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Fascinating - thanks, Bel. I'll draw Michael's attention to your information. Any other takers?
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US'ns would call that a red cent.
Usually found in the negative as in, "It didn't cost me one red cent."
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>Could it be so simple as the act of paying out one's last penny, the one found in the ashes in the fireplace?
Well, I'll be darned, my guess wasn't that far off!
TEd
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A great aunt, she was Irish-born, used the expression. I was quite young but I somehow knew she meant her last penny or full price, or that the price required digging deep into the finances, depending on context.
My Grandfather always called pennies "coppers" and when I visited Ireland...sure enough...the pennies (if not all copper) sure looked like copper coins!
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addict
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with reference to the phrase "spending a penny" meaning using the bathroom; from the old public toilets requiring a penny to open the door lock.
A Downing Street spokesman has confirmed that in order to meet the
conditions for joining the Euro, the phrase 'spending a penny' is
not to be used after the 31st of December 2001.
From this date the correct terminology will be 'euronating'.
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I suspect there will be some defec(a)tion from the ranks.
TEd
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Could it be so simple as the act of paying out one's last penny, the one found in the ashes in the fireplace?
Which may also be the origin of the Irish expression "he/she/it turned up like a black penny". But Google couldn't really help with that one, either.
We should also not forget that our grandparents weren't always 100% accurate in their use of expressions, any more than we are. Some of what we have heard at their knee may well be, um, plain wrong.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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Speaking of the alteration of expressions, around here, the phrase is usually "turn up like a bad penny."
I always wondered at the origin of the expression, and now I'm speculating that it is an ironical alteration of the black penny reference.
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I think bad penny more likely has reference to the tendency of getting back in change the counterfeit penny you passed last week.
TEd
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Which reminds me of Sam, the English counterfeiter who had a long career making small change, figuring no one would pay much attention to his larcenous efforts. Whe he was finally nabbed by Scotland Yard, he asked what had given him away. The detective merely went away whistling, "Sam, you made the pence too long."
TEd
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Honi soit qui mal y pence.
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