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We certainly could have done a better job in Vietnam, where we won the war militarily and lost politically.
Huh? Sorry, TEd, must have been a different war to the one fought 8,000 miles north of me. The one I know about was lost both militarily and politically and by a landslide at that.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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I think that there's been a lot of emotion in the posts above. That's understandable, if a little unfortunate.
My view (and it is only my view) is that whoever perpetrated the outrage in NY and DC this week is not a religious fanatic. The perpetrator may have enlisted religious fanatics to carry out the acts, but my understanding of terrorism is that it is usually carried out to achieve political, rather than religious ends.
Witness Northern Ireland and that sad farce last week when the loyalists gave the catholic kids going to school a hard time. Those ignorant morons on the street doing the yelling and jostling may well have been religiously motivated, but you cannot convince me that the leaders who called them out to do it had anything but political ends in mind. Come on!
Similarly, whoever was behind the attacks in the US will probably not give a monkey's toss for religion, but will have some purely political motive in mind. It's hard to know what that is, since no one has claimed responsibility for the attacks, and the most obvious suspect, bin Laden, has flatly denied it.
Oddly enough, I'm inclined to believe him. What possible motivation could he have for not putting his hand up to it if he was, indeed, responsible? Think of the increase in stature it would give him among his ostensible constituency! To say that he's denied it to avoid retribution is a nonsense. There's a $US15 million price on the man's head for heaven's sake. He's not worried about what Dubya thinks of him any more now than he was before the attack.
To get distracted by a few zealots dancing in the streets in Gaza or Ramalla or Islamabad or Peshawar or wherever is just silly. They're not players in the big game. And to start discussing the attacks in NYC and DC directly in terms of the Jewish/Arab issue is, in my opinion, fruitless.
I think there's a new player in the park, someone who has contacts within the Arab terrorism camp, but who has not been directly involved before. Why do I think this? Well, it's because the attacks were so well-planned and executed. Usually, there's a major error made (as in the first attempt on the WTC) due to a lack of training, of discipline or motivation.
And if I'm right, who could it be? Let's discount Saddam Hussein straight away. No way, no how, could he have engineered this one. It was simply beyond him. Ghadaffi? Don't make me laugh. Redoubtable though friend Muhamar may be, the Libyans are fringe players. Syria seems to have played itself out of the Arab fanaticism game. The Taleban couldn't organise a booze up in a brewery outside Kabul. Arresting a few foreign aid workers on charges of preaching Christianity is imaginative enough for them. Iran? Hardly. Pakistan? I'm running out of likely and unlikely Muslim-based suspects here.
That, again in my view, pretty much leaves the US's ostensible allies. Who has the most to gain from this attack on the US by Middle Eastern terrorists? If I were the FBI, I think I'd be looking at Saudi and Israel very diligently. Wouldn't you?
But if I am wrong, and the perpetrator is a lone wolf like bin Laden, if not actually bin Laden, how expensive would this have really been to pull off? Everyone is saying that it has to be big money. But even a cursory add-up doesn't actually come to all that much. $10-$20 million is chump change when it comes to terrorism.
Ann is right. The money will lead investigators to the source, or at least as close to it as they can come. And I only hope that the American agencies do their homework right before telling Dubya who they think did it. The consequences could be worse than any of us could imagine if America gets this one wrong.
For what it's worth.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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post edit: this was meant to be a private, so I'm removed it.
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Carpal Tunnel
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>What possible motivation could he (bin Laden) have for not putting his hand up to it if he was, indeed, responsible?
Quite simple, CapK. If he admits to having done this the Taliban will turn him over to the US faster than those planes were going when they hit their targets. They have said repeatedly that in the absence of proof that bin Laden has been involved in terrorism they do not intend to turn him over.
I wish to take this opportunity to tell everyone that I am NOT repeat NOT angry at Mav, and I have privately and hereby publickly accept his apology.
TEd
TEd
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And I was being a little facetious in suggesting Israel as a potential perpetrator. But only a little. And my wild imaginings had them using the terrorists as patsies, not Israelis!
Seriously, though, I believe that the Israelis would (a) do it and (b) be able to internally justify it if they thought that it would aid their cause and bring America more firmly on side. Not that they need to do that at the moment with a hawk like GWB at the American helm. That's why my tongue was in my cheek, at least to some extent.
Going back to the actual attack, did anyone see the slow motion footage taken by (I think) an amateur cameraperson of the second jet impacting the tower? For just an instant, perhaps one or two seconds, there was just this outline of an airliner "imprinted" on the building, a black shape or hole on glass. Then the explosion emerged. But it was really freaky, just like the cartoons of Wiley Coyote hitting something when one of his schemes has gone awry. I shall probably never laugh at that kind of thing again. It was so real!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Cap,
The only reason I can think of that the Israelis would attack the United States would be to engage this country in all-out war in the Middle East thereby destroying their adversaries. While not beyond the scope of possibility, I find it hard to contemplate and also that the suggestion insinuates an incredible evil to that government. *Perhaps, if the country's very existence were threatened..but it is not. And that "perhaps" is almost off the meter. As to the Saudis, I cannot imagine what possible motive a regime that is at pains to keep power in the face of fundamentalist movements could have to so destabilize the politics of the region. You are saying that they would seek to create a war which would be fashioned a Jihad against "the west." But that same jihad would identify the Saudi monarchy as a regime installed by the very enemy of that jihad and would certainly try to bring it down.
...or, what *is your reasoning?
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I encourage everyone to patronize Muslim-owned businesses and to show solidarity with Muslim-Americans and guests in our country.
post edit: I'd considered not including what was formerly the first line of this post. Keiva, by public and private post, has convinced me that I should (not include it). In his words, and I agree, the line was gratuitous.
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Carpal Tunnel
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An excellent idea. Regardless of my intense disagreement with the first eight words, the remainder is insightful and proactive -- an excellent idea.
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Carpal Tunnel
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As things unfold we'll have to look at the numbers, at how big the "handful" is. Yep, that sounds reasonable. I noticed this from the NYT, and had meant to protest about Dr Bill’s flip use of the phrase “wet work” for describing CIA murder: “…after the attacks, the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, the chairman of the House intelligence committee and two former directors of central intelligence said the attacks justified easing some restrictions on the behavior of spy agencies. Some of those leaders also said the terrorist assault represented a colossal failure of American intelligence.
"We have got to be a hell of a lot more aggressive," said Senator Richard C. Shelby, Republican of Alabama and vice chairman of the Senate intelligence committee.
R. James Woolsey, the former director of central intelligence, said that "Washington has absolutely undergone a sea change in thinking this week."
Those comments reflect a turning point in the attitude of political leaders toward the need for sharp limits on the extent and nature of covert operations and perhaps for allowing American agents to carry out the kinds of actions that have long been prohibited as too ruthless or morally questionable.
They also reflect a strong public sentiment …/ …A New York Times/ CBS News poll conducted late last week showed that 65 percent of those questioned say American agents should be allowed to seek out and assassinate people in foreign countries who commit terrorist acts against Americans.http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/16/international/16INTE.html?todaysheadlines“who commit terrorist acts” – judge, jury and executioner. Now, for me this is unambiguous: not despite but because of my revulsion at this week’s terrorism, the idea that 65% of Americans now evidently support state-conducted murder is appalling. (This goes back to the language query I raised a while ago: when is it appropriate to use the word ‘murder’ for state-sponsored assassination?) Oh, America – you whose country was founded upon noble ideals of liberty, justice, the separation of powers… is all this to be the long-term casualty of the mob rule mentality? I hope not. But 65% is a pretty scary handful.
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Pooh-Bah
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<<I hope not. But 65% is a pretty scary handful.>>
I will not here offer my views on this subject, I have to think about it. But I would venture that, considering what has happened, considered objectively 65% really reflects a very restrained response.
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