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#35645 - 07/14/01 04:15 AM
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409

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#35646 - 07/14/01 08:30 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
Nice Max.

Only one form/meaning of irony is discussed in the article though Max; the other has proved a much harder concept to grasp.

That song 'ironic' is perfect though, eh. I've got to give it to Alanis, she wrote a song called ironic and the only ironic thing about it, is that the woman does not understand the meaning of the word.


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#35647 - 07/14/01 09:02 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
Marianna Offline
addict

Registered: 01/09/01
Posts: 427
Loc: Spain
Or maybe "unfortunate" didn't scan properly?



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#35648 - 07/14/01 10:07 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
wordcrazy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 275
MAX>>>
SAN FRANCISCO MAN BECOMES FIRST AMERICAN TO GRASP IRONY.

Max, where do you ever find these jewels? I love it!




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#35649 - 07/14/01 11:01 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
wordcrazy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 275
belligerentyouth>>>>
Only one form/meaning of irony is discussed in the article though Max; the other has proved a much harder concept to grasp.

That song 'ironic' is perfect though, eh. I've got to give it to Alanis, she wrote a song called ironic and the only ironic thing about it, is that the woman does not understand the meaning of the word.


Could she be using Socratic irony?







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#35650 - 07/14/01 12:01 PM Re: Isn't it ironic?
wow Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
Alanis...wrote a song called ironic and the only ironic thing about it, is that the woman does not understand the meaning of the word.

Could she be using Socratic irony?

Is that irony? Or what?



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#35651 - 07/14/01 03:37 PM Re: Isn't it ironic?
Rapunzel Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 328
Loc: Eastern Pennsylvania
From Atomica:

Socratic irony
n.
Profession of ignorance and of willingness to learn as one interrogates another on the meaning of a term.


Thanks for introducing me to this term, wordcrazy. I wasn't familiar with it before. And I'm not saying that in a Socratically ironic way, either.



P. S. wow:

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#35652 - 07/14/01 03:56 PM Re: Isn't it ironic?
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
And all too often irony is straightfaced sarcasm.


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#35653 - 07/14/01 04:00 PM Re: Isn't it ironic?
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
And all too often irony is straightfaced sarcasm.

As when the recipients of the burned steaks said: "They are well done."


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#35654 - 07/15/01 11:48 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
Could she be using Socratic irony?

You decide:

A traffic jam when you're already late
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break

(http://www.execpc.com/~greysyt/ami.htm)

Sounds like the song should have been called 'D'oh!' if you ask me.
I doubt she was like, considering, like, that sokratic stuff.


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#35655 - 07/18/01 12:44 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
Fiberbabe Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/12/01
Posts: 771
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Some time ago, a Harvard English professor (or someone of similar stature who seems to get paid for doing these sorts of things) put together a treatise about how, technically, none of the citations in that song illustrated irony at all. The pithy & brilliant comment that I took away from it was "None of those qualify as irony - the best that any of them can be described is a bummer."

Go Harvard.


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#35656 - 07/18/01 03:20 AM The overused word, with the underused concept
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
>A Harvard English professor

I think he is a tad overqualified to be studying poor Miss M.'s poetic botchery under a bright light.
Compared to some of the Eurotrash on offer here, Alanis really doesn't sound all that bad. You get these French hussies singing handbag house songs, in which a full sentences would be an odd change. Mind you, English is not their first language.


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#35657 - 07/18/01 07:03 AM Re: The overused word, with the underused concept
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
handbag house songs
My, are you in the mood for unusual sayings today, or something? I've never heard this one, either. Care to elucidate?
By the way, thanks for pointing out that the irony song has nothing to do with irony--I hadn't really thought about it before, she said with one hand in her pocket.


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#35658 - 07/19/01 04:44 AM Re: The overused word, with the underused concept
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
handbag house songs

synonyms:
main-stream, commercial, widely-marketed, cheesy etc.

This can be used when refering to music produced for the masses. Its use (I assume) stems from the '70s custom of ladies putting their handbag in the middle of the dance floor and dancing round it. I of course, can only fall back on heresay concerning this practice, but it seems this was only common in places where very main-stream disco music was played (I guess things like EW&F, Donna Summer, Kool&theGang etc.). Anyone partake in, or view such a ceremony?


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#35659 - 07/19/01 08:53 AM Re: The overused word, with the underused concept
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
Anyone partake in, or view such a ceremony?

I confess to having done this very thing in my misspent youth (though I'd never heard the term "handbag house song" before now). It was, however, more of a security precaution than any sort of wiccan ritual.


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#35660 - 07/19/01 09:12 AM Re: The overused word, with the underused concept
Sparteye Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 1773
the '70s custom of ladies putting their handbag in the middle of the dance floor and dancing round it

I've never even heard of that before. Where was I in the 70s? Lord knows I frequented plenty of bars, but apparently the wrong (or right?) kind.


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#35661 - 07/19/01 10:24 AM Re: Handbag dances
wow Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
handbag in the middle of the dance floor and dancing round it .....I've never even heard of that before. Where was I in the 70s?

I was raising two boys and working. Only time I got to a bar was if there was a dead body there - and I had to cover the story!Hi Sparteye


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#35662 - 07/19/01 10:43 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
she wrote a song called ironic and the only ironic thing about it, is that the woman does not understand the meaning of the word.

Well, if she used the term contrary to its meaning isn't that irony? Or is it metairony?

Actually® US'ns does use irony. We just call it lying or stupidity.


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#35663 - 07/19/01 11:35 AM Sparteye's bars
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
You were probably in the right ones, Sparteye. What I'm talking about are/were those huge booming disco palaces with the black lights and mirror balls. I'm glad I still have my auditory faculties.


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#35664 - 07/20/01 06:19 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
she used the term contrary to its meaning isn't that irony?

Faldage, you know as well as I do that she didn't give 20+ false examples in the song just to call the entire song 'ironic' allowing for the 'metairony' you describe. But I will ask her if I meet her.

It could have all made sense though; take this line for example:

'Traffic jam, when you're already late'

if she'd made it:

Traffic jam, and I'm already late,
Go up extra early this morning,
Just to avoid the delay.
Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
YES!!

We just call it lying or stupidity.

I don't wish to start some we/us debate. I agree that a lot of remarks that attain the term 'irony' are often plain sarcasm, lying, or stupidity. Stupidity being the fitting alternative when considering that meek woman's song.
Such widely used meta-language like 'irony' will always be problematic it seems.


infertile@family-planning.com


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#35665 - 07/20/01 07:40 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
lying or stupidity

E.g., I could care less.


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#35666 - 07/20/01 08:06 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
rodward Offline
addict

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 609
Loc: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
I could care less

another ukage/usage. In UK we say "I couldn't care less" which seems more logical to me.

Rod



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#35667 - 07/20/01 08:33 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
rodward comments: "I couldn't care less" which seems more logical to me.

That's cuz y'all don't understand irony.


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#35668 - 07/20/01 08:42 AM Re: Isn't it ironic?
rodward Offline
addict

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 609
Loc: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
rodward comments: "I couldn't care less" which seems more logical to me.

That's cuz y'all don't understand irony.


Nice one Faldage, you brought it back full circle, but pointing in the other direction.

Rod



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#35669 - 07/22/01 06:43 PM Re: Handbag dances
solrep Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/12/00
Posts: 29
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I'd say it began in the UK in the summer of 62 when dances that did not require a partner came into vogue -- like the twist, I guess.

Carpe whatever
_________________________
Carpe whatever

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