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Errors and Emissions Extrudedas reported by the NYT: In the debate on global climate change it has long been a given that China, with its huge population and endless coal reserves, would overtake the United States early this century as the biggest source of the atmospheric pollution that scientists believe is warming the planet.
That spectre of runaway Chinese emissions has been cited by President Bush as a major reason for describing as "fatally flawed" the 1997 Kyoto agreement to protect the climate. The treaty exempts developing countries, including China, from its initial, binding limits on the output of carbon dioxide and other so-called greenhouse gases that scientists believe are causing traumatic changes in the climate.
But treaty obligation or not, China has already achieved a dramatic slowing in its emissions of carbon dioxide in the last decade, Chinese and Western energy experts say….
"China's emissions of carbon dioxide have shrunk by 17 percent since the mid-1990's," according to an April report from researchers at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. "Remarkably, over the same period, G.D.P. grew by 36 percent. "http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/15/world/15CHIN
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What China needs is for all the senior officials in charge of the fossil fuel industry to take over the country.
Then they'll really be learning from the example of a developed country.
They'll be able to turn those numbers around one day, if they really try, and can become a world leader, just like us fool US'ns.
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Well done, Hyla.
...unfortunately, we seem to be (at least the rest of the world thinks it's "us") following them in participating (or even having a chance to) in protecting basic human rights.
I warned you's about pride, but you's wouldn't listen...
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only one country has actually signed said "agreement": Romania.
We need to be more careful with words than this - at the time of the writing, only one country may have ratified it (that is, had its legislative body, or some portion thereof [in the US it's the Senate that does this] vote to accept and implement it), but dozens had signed it, by having an official representative sign it. The US often begins operating according to treaty agreements prior to full ratification, as it can be a very involved process.
For the current status, from the UN web site: "as of 9-May-2001, 84 Parties have signed and 34 Parties have ratified or acceded to the Kyoto Protocol."
Sadly, progress on that front doesn't counter the argument that the US Senate is not likely to want to buy this particular doggie in the window. Harrumph®
(Note: Harrumph appears courtesy of AnnaStrophic Rantings Unlimited, all rights reserved)
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For the current status, from the UN web site: "as of 9-May-2001, 84 Parties have signed and 34 Parties have ratified or acceded to the Kyoto Protocol."Thanks for the clarification, Hyla. I guess I didn't do my homework well enough. 
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One of the problems with this treaty, though, is that it ignores the fact that the US is more populous than almost all of the other nations in the treaty (I think we're third behind China and India) and we produce quite a bit of the products that other countries use. When we're the biggest industrial producer and main provider in the world economy how can we be expected to fit into such strict guidelines.
Don't get me wrong, I like the environment just as much as the next guy, but many of the pollution complaints are exaggerated. Some scientists have determined that all of the pollution that the human race has made throughout history is no more than the output of a volcano.
And can someone tell me what harm CO2 emissions are causing? Carbon dioxide is what plants "breathe". Perhaps the problem with the emissions is not industry, but greedy South American farmers who are tearing down the rain forest and thus lessening the number of plants that can suck in the CO2.
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I think JazzO has shed some clear light on C02... http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=21128Subject Re: The trees of spring, tra la Posted by musick (member) Posted on Sun Mar 18 11:27:21 2001 (My apologies to those that have seen enough of this one...)
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Speaking of bushes, and trees: In the dear dead days beyond recall, I interviewed a professor at University of New Hampshire (founded as a Land Grant College and very big on the environment) who said something I have never forgotten : he said that it takes four trees to replenish the oxygen for the average family. In those days (statistically) Mom, Dad and 2 1/2 children.
Since then have bought homes where requisite number of trees was present, or immediately planted a couple!
How does your tree-garden grow?
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I have many trees that line my driveway, would that they were not mulberry. They are much loved by the birds, I know, but they run straight through them and decorate my car in the processed and unprocessed form. I squish-walk to and from my car every day. This, too, shall pass.
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> Some scientists have determined that all of the pollution that the human race has made throughout history is no more than the output of a volcano.
Some scientists do not warrant that name
>And can someone tell me what harm CO2 emissions are causing? Carbon dioxide is what plants "breathe".
Perhaps the problem with the emissions is not industry, but greedy South American farmers who are tearing down the rain forest and thus lessening the number of plants that can suck in the CO2.
Jazzo, mate, I too believe Mother Earth will be able to withstand the human onslaught, what with her being around hundreds of millions years of years and all, but that does not, not even slightly justify humans polluting the earth to the current extremes.
> ...problems with this treaty, though, is that it ignores the fact that the US is more populous than almost all of the other nations
Na-uh cap, those who participated did take into account that say, oh Andorra might not be justified as much pollution as France for example (you really think they're that stupid? [scratching head]).
> how can we be expected to fit into such strict guidelines.
Strict! This plan was a VERY small step in the right direction. It didn't consider other gases, nor water pollution etc.
Your average US'n (Pick-up-driving, beer-guzzling 'n what not) comsumes circa double the fossil fuels that a European counterpart does in any one year (and yes, Europeans, relative to the rest of the world, use a lot too). Not just that, but your over-patriotic population also uses more water and produces more rubbish on average than any other state on this tinny planet.
You have the audacity to accuse South-American farmers living on the breadline of crimes against our earth!!! Step down from your ivory-tower, pull the wool from in front of your eyes, and foremost stop swallowing that insidious propaganda and half-truths that Uncle Sam feeds you and the millions of bandwagon consumers and blind partisans!
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what harm CO2 emissions are causing? ...tearing down the rain forest and thus lessening the number of plants that can suck in the CO2.
A number of points. The Earth is subject to all sorts of climate cycles which it is well beyond our capacity to control. Within these cycles climatologists have discovered many rapid upward swings of temperature in the past associated with rapid increase in CO2 levels, followed by slower decreases. Something flips the system to release the locked in CO2. The current levels of CO2 are historically high and are rising which (if the past is anything to go by) will raise temperatures globally. While some areas may benefit for a while, most ecosystems will be put under extreme strain (=drought, storms, flooding, starvation)
Most climatologists are surprised that the measured CO2 is lower than the amount predicted by the amount being pumped out by humans. Like cosmologists looking for dark matter, climatologists have been looking for the hidden sinks. Until they understand where these sinks are and how stable they are, the models are not complete. Last night a program on TV stated that a series of measurements have discovered that the Amazon is not CO2 neutral as had been thought (i.e. CO2 from decaying trees = CO2 locked in new growth) but was still sucking it in. But in rain free years it is a CO2 source. All it needs is a few more degrees and it will become a permanent source with fires releasing most of what is already locked in. This will provide a CO2 surge and global temperatures would soar (their prediction - another 20 degrees C from 2050 to 2100). There are other CO2 sinks such as the oceans which might also flip and add to the problem.
Yes it would be great if the "greedy peasants" would stop tearing the rain forest down, that would buy us another 2 years maybe, but it needs a lot more effort by everyone to make a real difference. [/rant]
Rod
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greedy peasants
And I think you will find that US based multinationals are implicated in much of the rapacious logging that goes on in S America, as well as having directly beneficial interests in the raising of beef for all your McDonalds beastburgers... Tear down a tree, put up a farting cow (sorry Joni)
/rant (tho only temp)
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Tear down a tree, put up a farting cow (sorry Joni)
One of the big problems of the whole global warming discussion is the abundance of verbal bovine excrement. An example is the idiocy of government grants to devise ways to reduce the amount of cow flatus. The grain cows eat would be converted to CO2 and methane even if the cows did not eat it.
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Rock on, by, rodward and maverick.
A few points, and I'll try to keep my ranting under control, as I feel I've been posting a lot recently on things that are only vaguely word-related.
As to greedy South American farmers: does wanting to eat make one greedy? These folks are not sitting back on the verandas of their great haciendas and enjoying seeing the great towers of new-cut hardwoods stack up for shipment abroad - for the most part, they're clearing a couple of acres and planting the crops they plan to eat. In general, they've no other option, and there's a lot of them.
On carbon sinks: one of the most likely explanations for the lower-than-expected presence of carbon in the atmosphere is that the world's oceans are absorbing a lot of the CO2 we generate. What no one knows is how much they can absorb, and what happens when they reach that limit: do they gradually absorb less and less, do they just abruptly stop absorbing it, or do they reach a point of super-saturation and just start spilling carbon back into the atmosphere? In either of the latter 2 cases, we're in big trouble fast.
I agree with belligerentyouth, the earth will withstand whatever we can do to it. So, we won't kill the planet - just ourselves. I've got a baby due tomorrow, and I can't live with that.
[/eco-rant]
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...over-patriotic population also uses more water and produces more rubbish on average...
... especially the rubbish part (it makes me sick thinking about it)... except for the over-patriotic part... too much apathy (as voter turn-out *may suggest).
...Uncle Sam feeds you... I don't know any Uncle Sam.
...millions of bandwagon consumers and blind partisans... These people I know... and because the "problem" is worse here, we need words of encouragement from those that know better.
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> we need words of encouragement Point taken Musick. I recently spoke to lady who has put years into the Kyoto project, and she, needless to say, was very disheartened. She feels if this first important agreement completely caves in then there will not be much point in her working on. Sadly, it seems things will have to get far worse before they can get better. ...I'm always good for a bit of encouragement, eh ;-) I've heard that the Bush administration has copped a fair amount of criticism domestically concerning this issue. Can't they start some Senate veto, or a petition or something to stop them (I'm a real expert on politics  )???.
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Unfortunately... just as (in another thread) not voting is ignored, so is changing your "mind" (and I use that term losely) on issues within months of the election (because he's getting too much flak from the people that didn't elect him... a majority of people here  ). Appropriated even less respect (from me) is the way our media "played down" the importance of the sentiments that Europeans brought to him (on a recent visit), yet when it comes to virtually everything else "a good capitalist" should pay attention to, we live in a global atmosphere. If this countries' laws would be adjusted to reflect the now, and in doing so take the original words "by the people for the people" a bit more serious, there would be more referendi(sp?) and less bs masked within the law coming from the elected.
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And the latest feather in Dubya's cap, Vladimir Putin has stated that if Bush goes ahead to build his National Missile Defense system (which, by most accounts, will not work), then Russia will have no choice but to upgrade its nuclear arsenal to multiple-warhead delivery systems.
I sure have missed the nuclear arms race, and I'm thrilled to think it could come back just because W wants to implement an idea that was simply the ideé fixe of an aging actor in the early 80's. Who needs rogue nations? The big kids are getting out their old toys again.
AnnaS, if I may...HARRUMPH.
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Not to alarm you (ha) it's already there. Why do you think the war in Bosnia stopped (don't answer that question, please). They are just feeling guilty about not telling everyone and are finally realizing the weight of the "capitol gains" to be had from such a technological victory. So much for humanity.
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....and we produce quite a bit of the products that other countries use. When we're the biggest industrial producer and main provider in the world economy how can we be expected to fit into such strict guidelines...The US is a big producer but it's a bigger consumer: the US has a net trade deficit - to the tune of c $30 billion a month. NB Europe is also a net consumer (deficit $72b for 2000). Besides whether producer (I would take issue with provider) or consumer, both have their responsibilities. We can't just blame Bush or big business for pollution, the individual consumer has a large part to play. As consumers do we consider environmental impact? If environmental damage was reflected in the price then it would: allow the market mechanism to affect consumer choice much more effectively than public education (the environment deserves more protection than optional consumer good will); raise revenues to clean up/research; and force firms to develop cleaner and more efficient practices to reduce the environmental tax sting (internalising externalities for any economists out there). [/wary of panaceas emoticon] Rod ...the Amazon is not CO2 neutral...All it needs is a few more degrees and it will become a permanent source Does this mean they will be the Lungs of the World again - literally  . Of course the principle of wwh's farts (not meant like that  ) is not about whether the carbon will be released but whether it is released as methane or CO2. Methane is 20 times more effective at trapping radiation than CO2. As to the idiocy of the government's sheme I would be loathed to contest. I say close the door and when they're nice 'n' meaty drop in a match and have a barbie  . I'm done.
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Just a quick note... This is an rounded article on the issue: http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=655664Here's a report with the target CO2 outputs for 2012 (page 29). I read an article in Süddeutsche yesterday (which I can't find online) where some of these numbers and each countries current emissions were listed. The only 'Western' countries that have headed in the right direction are England and Germany. What are the others up to? These from memory... Country . . . .Target (%of'92). . . Emissions '00 Australia . . . 108% . . . . . . . 115% USA . . . . . . 92% .. . . . . . . 110% Norway . . . . 100% . . . . . . . 120%! http://www.unfccc.de/resource/docs/cop3/07a01.pdf
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The UK has been partly featherbedded by the so-called dash to gas as fuel for feeding the power gen plants, but it is also fair to say there is widespread awareness and action on energy conservation (both by individuals and government). However painful to the rural economy, we have swallowed major tax rises on fuel for transport (ahead of inflation by leaps) for several years in succession, and this year have a tax on energy used by industry. Dubya's America needs to think long and hard if it is not to be branded the dirty old man of the world, addicted to swilling energy like a foul old drunkard brown bagging it on the sidewalk. And this is from a friend
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I went to a festival in Munich's Olympia Park last might and Green Peace had information booths and a caravan etc.
The main emphasis of there little exhibition was, you guessed it: global warming, climate change and the contributing greenhouse gases. This is mainly becuase the next conference is of course Bonn, Germany. I spoke to a bloke there, who told me that, in essence, Germany has done very little towards actively lowering emissions. You see, in 1992 when when the targets were set, the former-DDR still had many dirty brown-coal powerstations that were on the chopping block anyway; needless to say, it was a very sombering conversation.
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But maybe in the USA the penny’s dropping…? Despite his first overseas trip as president and the passage of his sweeping measure to cut taxes, President Bush's standing as a leader on both domestic and foreign fronts has diminished considerably, the latest New York Times/CBS News Poll shows.
Far from giving him a political lift, Mr. Bush's European tour, though it drew largely upbeat news coverage, did not appear to help him in the eyes of the public. More than half of Americans say they are uneasy about Mr. Bush's ability to tackle an international crisis, and more people than not say he is not respected by other world leaders.http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/21/politics/21POLL.html?todaysheadlines
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