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I wanted to start this discussion long ago, thanks for bringing it into play.  I'll challenge *anyone to come up with a situation where pride is "looked down" upon in this society of so called puritans (at least conservatives  ). Commercial marketing attacks these *seven "sins" with a bellows designed to flame them into the towering inferno's they've become. Where would pride be without envy? Where would sloth be without gluttony? Where would avarice be without greed? Lust stands alone as the one that is truly not a sin.
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Musick writes Lust stands alone as the one that is truly not a sin.
I refuse categorically to be drawn into a discussion of that statement!
Really feeling your oats, today, ain'cha' Birthday Boy?
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Anything I say *today can and will categorically be equated with some preconceived mindset others think I should have... sounds like envy to me...
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I'll challenge *anyone to come up with a situation where pride is "looked down" upon in this society of so called puritans
I don't know about providing a specific situation, but, for me, pride is like jealousy - the sin is in the degree. If either becomes inordinate, that is a sin. Envy, on t'other hand seems to me to be the mark of mean-spiritdness, and ought to be considered a sin whenever it is manifested.
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Envy, on t'other hand seems to me to be the mark of mean-spiritdness, and ought to be considered a sin whenever it is manifested.is envy, by definition, necessarily the desire to *take* something from another? atomica defines it as "A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another."i guess it's difficult for me to distinguish between envy and admiration. i can admire something--a beautiful jewel, for example--without wishing for it myself (i don't care much for jewelry). however, i often find myself envying someone's talents, wisdom, experience, self-control (  ), etc., in the sense that i set those attributes as goals for myself. my envy certainly doesn't include a wish that those whose traits or possessions i admire would themselves lose them. is this form of envy still a sin? is there a better word for what i think of as envy?
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in the sense that i set those attributes as goals for myself. my envy certainly doesn't include a wish that those whose traits or possessions i admire would themselves lose them. is this form of envy still a sin?
Is that really envy? To me, the sentiment you describe does not mock the meat it feeds on, and yes, I know that Willie used jealousy there.  Like you, I use the word envy in a similar way, but if I were to be more precise, I would say that "I admire your x, and I wish that I had similar x", instead of "I envy you your x."
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Re: envy, by definition, necessarily the desire to *take* something from another? atomica defines it as "A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another."
I think the bolded words make the difference-- I could look at someone (and I have) and envy something they have (most notable intangable skills--) and let it eat at me-- cause me to discontent and resentment--
or I could look as some one, and desire something they have-- and use it as spur to improve myself--(as I have learned to do)
I see the first as a sin-- (and don't we all know people, who no matter what they have, are always crying "unfair, I don't have it. why can't I have it, too?"
To combat envy-- i try to emulate those i envy-- To recognize-- I don't have to resent or be discontented.. I can, if i want, be as poised, or as what ever..
To envy is, to some degree, to negate ones self-- an act of self destruction.. If I envy someones beautiful (singing) voice.. It doesn't help me sing any better-- and keeps me from being the best i can be.. (I am the perfect example of how bad a person can sing-- but I sing non the less-- I enjoy the sound of my voice-- even if no one else does!)
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(I am the perfect example of how bad a person can sing-- but I sing non the less-- I enjoy the sound of my voice-- even if no one else does!)
Sorry, helen, but I must object. I jealously guard the right to call myself "the perfect example of how bad a person can sing"
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Nicholas, succinct and to the point....I like it!
And here is the Russian folk tale ( a bit apropos for one named after a Czar) : There were two farmers in the Ukraine. Ivan had fallen on hard times and lost all his sheep, while Peter still had a flock of twelve. One night an angel appeared to Ivan to grant him one wish. He thought long and hard about Peter's sheep. He could either wish for 12 sheep like Peter possessed (jealousy) or he could choose to have Peter's sheep disappear forever (envy). So, this is how I prefer to interpret the difference...one is pure desire of another's possession, the other, so intense, as to desire the other's misfortune.
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I see the first as a sin-- (and don't we all know people, who no matter what they have, are always crying "unfair, I don't have it. why can't I have it, too?"
You make a fair point, dear Helen!
I'd modify it somewhat ... envy is when someone says "unfair, I don't have it. You should give me yours."
Guess I agree with the sheepherder parable.
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