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'Wer keine fremde Sprache spricht,
kennt seine Muttersprache nicht.'
J.W.v.Goethe
Roughly translated:
'He who speaks no foreign language,
does not know his mother tongue'
Do you think he wrote that intended for those who wish to study their own language in depth without studying others, or did he mean it in more general sense?
Chris
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I have to admit to a more general interest in the correct pronunciation of 'Goethe'. 
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"Do you think he wrote that intended for those who wish to study their own language in depth without studying others, or did he mean it in more general sense?"
It seems clear to me that he meant you cannot truly study your mother tongue in depth without studying others as well.
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'He who speaks no foreign language,
does not know his mother tongue'
I sometimes get a mild chuckle out of people who belittle the notion of travelling great distances to "discover oneself". If one were to grow up in some compact community, such as South Lyon, MI, in the '50s, where everyone knew everyone else and the whole community was the whole universe, one wouldn't necessarily know where one ended and the rest of the community began. If one then traveled to, say, San Francisco in the '60s and then on to Morocco in the '70s and beyond, only then would one begin to understand who or what oneself was.
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'He who speaks no foreign language, does not know his mother tongue'
I understood it to mean that one needs a comparitive language to highlight the mechanisms and assumptions in one's own language. What seems natural and "god-given" becomes worthy of investigation when other ways are shown to be equally valid (or widely held). This is also true of political, cultural, religeous and social systems.
What may be of interest is how different should the other language be to be of best use in teaching us more about our own language. Are there particular languages which are best suited for this job? (On English would it be Latin, Klingon?) Or can we get the best instruction from a range of languages? My own natural inclination is the latter with no real evidence except that I know I have learnt something from each language I have been exposed to.
Rod
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I thought BY's original post to this thread was the start of a badly scanned limerick, something like: "A spotty young thinker named Goethe Was in love with his wife, wouldn't hurt 'er ... " etc. As for travelling to find oneself, I've looked everywhere else, so I'm now trying the USA for a few weeks, although actually(r) I believe I'll stumble over my sorry ass somewhere in Britain ... The use of languages as a basis for the understanding of one's own is probably the reason that foreign languages such as French and German are taught in schools in Zild. Since the general standard of language teaching is so low, it's hard to believe that they actually expect you to be able to use the language conversationally! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Since the general standard of language teaching is so low, it's hard to believe that they actually expect you to be able to use the language conversationally! Then I guess I was truly lucky. My German teachers were all very good at their job, and managed to impart a passion for the language of Goethe. It was from reading the blurb on one of them that I learned that "MA Hons. Cantab" did not stand for Canterbury, but Cambridge.
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BY, I think he meant you can't study your own language without studying others (and - by extension - you can't know your own language well without studying it)
BTW, I always wondered why Goethe went for the e in lieu of the umlaut.
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I agree with Rod. When I took up French, I learned more about English than I had ever known. [rant]I would like to add that that Europe's-pants-off or whatever thread is all "Greek" to me. Thank you-all so much for providing me with a whole screen of meaningless posts.  [/rant]
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In a comedy show on the CBC several years ago a Mountie is being sent undercover to investigate a group promoting English only. The commissioner asks him some questions to test his understanding of the issues involved.
Q: Sargeant, what do you call someone who speaks 3 languages?
A: Tri-lingual, sir.
Q: What about someone who speaks 2 languages?
A: Bilingual, sir.
Q: Someone who speaks one language?
A: Anglo-Saxon, sir.
My experience has been the same as Jackie's, speaking French has given me new insight into the origin of English words. (e.g. One the came up the other day: valid means able-bodied in French - hence invalid for someone who is not.) German, as well, gives many clues to the origins of our language and it gives me satisfaction to be able to read and understand something in the original language.
The quote that started this thread can, in my opinion, be taken to be a specific reference language or to the culture in general, as is your want, because you can't learn a language without getting at least some idea of the culture behind it. When you learn something about a different culture it makes you to think about how your culture deals with the same issue. For instance, in France you are guilty until proven innocent. Is that worse or better than systems based on the British tradition? You learn more about yourself and your beliefs by comparing and contrasting with others.
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So... one can only understand what they are by: stopping what they are, that is, learning what they aren't, and within having this new found knowledge is the essense of becoming something else, and therefore never having a chance to find out what one is, only what one was; and, if in doing so one found out that what they were was preferable to what they had become, the road back is, in effect, closed for eternity. 
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So... one can only understand what they are by: stopping what they are, that is, learning what they aren't, and in having this new found knowledge is the essense of becoming something else, and therefore never having a chance to find out what one is, only what one was; and if, in doing so, one found out that what they were was preferable to what they had become, the road back is, in effect, closed for eternity.
Um ... well ... Okay, if you say so!
[walking away hands in pocket, shoulders hunched, head bowed, muttering "What?" -e]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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So... one can only understand what they are by: stopping what they are, that is, learning what they aren't, and within having this new found knowledge is the essense of becoming something else, and therefore never having a chance to find out what one is, only what one was; and, if in doing so one found out that what they were was preferable to what they had become, the road back is, in effect, closed for eternity.I understood this perfectly--I think. Let me try reframing it, and sweet musick can correct me if I'm wrong. Let's say that what we are, prior to learning another culture, is 'A'. Learning another culture ("what we aren't") is 'B'. The process of 'B' somehow changes us irrevocably, and so we become 'C', and can never go back to being just 'A'. I disagree--to a certain extent. I believe that mostpeople will indeed be influenced by acquired knowledge. But it doesn't follow that everyone will be. And this theory does not allow for the possibility that a 'C'-state person could consciously decide to rid himself of all 'B' influences. If someone did that, they would then return to being 'A'. Furthermore, I suspect that SM made this post tongue-firmly-in-cheek. So, you see, SM, I have foiled your little plot, hah hah haa-aah... 
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Ah, the special theory of relativity. Physics! Great, I'm happy now.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Glad to have been of assistance, CK. 
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Jackie, I feel your pain. I'm reminded of interminable cricket and rugby threads perpetrated by certain Zildians who, of course, shall remain anonymous. At *least the Euro-panto thread has to do with words 
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...he's my buddy. Just a quick reference for those who don't "thread" (I don't), that was directed at Faldage. Now back to our story... Inherent to the process of acquiring (ie. connecting the dots) is internalizing (quoth Jimmy Obvious), and certainly the goal when learning a different language, I think. Although there is clearly a limit to what one can keep in mind at a given moment (or would make *sense to do so anyway) which would lead me to believe that some (large) part of who we are is going to be ignored (or even unavailable) most of the time, it is the pallet in which we draw from which is irrecoverably changed. One may not choose to "paint with certain colors" ever again, but, in Jackie's terms, ignoring "C" doesn't mean you arrived back at the original "A"... close... more like an A+ (or A prime). Although we talk about language here, we use language to communicate about it, and to stop and re-explain every context that we aren't using would become quite a hinderance: a kind of externalizing of the language process - artfully(ha,ha-tsuwm) internalizing even further under the guize of "unlearning". Furthermore, I suspect that SM made this post tongue-firmly-in-cheek. So, you see, SM, I have foiled your little plot, hah hah haa-aah.. ...well not so firmly... and although my advocacy may travel south on occasion, there has to be at least 2.24 percent of *truth (or was that *beauty?) somewhere north in the post.
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Well, Sweetie, it takes all kinds...
Gee-minently, will I ever navigate the convolutions of your mind? (But even if I don't, SM, I won't nagivate you.)
(And you're my SM, but you call whoever it if you want.)
So, you have now included art in the equation, as well as mathematics. Aptually®, I agree with you, about 97.76%.
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I'm reminded of interminable cricket and rugby threads perpetrated by certain Zildians who, of course, shall remain anonymous. Hmmm, an intersting use of the word interminable. A search reveals that a grand total of 34 posts contain the word, "rugby", while there are just over four times as many posts containing the word "baseball." Where is the harrumphing about "interminable" threads on US sports, may I ask?
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Where is the harrumphing about "interminable" threads on US sports, may I ask?
Go ahead and harrumph, Max, but my lawyer asks you to remember to use the ® hi Jackie!
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Go ahead and harrumph, Max, but my lawyer asks you to remember to use the ®
Mais, non, ma belle du Sud! I wasn't h***ing, I was inquiring why you weren't h***ing over the far more numerous posts dealing on US sports, in the interest of objectivity and evenhandedness. I am well disposed to all things Atlantan, says he quaffing his "Atlanta Ale", even if you'll never catch me singing in harmony with anyone.
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>...and although my advocacy may travel south on occasion, there has to be at least 2.24 percent of *truth (or was that *beauty?) somewhere north in the post.
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty" -- a correct philosophical utterance made aesthetically incorrect at the very moment it is uttered. beauty is truth only if and when the pedagogue is there to say so by whatever means he can -- arguably, beauty is truth precisely when it does *not say so, just as a holy man disproves his holiness as soon as he asserts it. ironically enough then, this most famous line of Keats, while starkly simple, denies what a simple line must be valued for, asserting what should be implied, attesting to what it can't. it's a paradox akin to "this sentence is false".
[after Alexander Theroux]
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> "Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty"
I read once that 'beauty is a label of lies'.
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Go ahead and harrumph, Max, but my lawyer asks you to remember to use the ®Mais, non, ma belle du Sud! I wasn't h***ing, I was inquiring why you weren't h***ing over the far more numerous posts dealing on US sports, in the interest of objectivity and evenhandedness. I am well disposed to all things Atlantan, says he quaffing his "Atlanta Ale", even if you'll never catch me singing in harmony with anyone.Don't worry Max. The ® symbol means Rugby. The © means Cricket. We've got her cornered, boy, we really have!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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tsuwm admits to a more general interest in the correct pronunciation of 'Goethe'.
It's pronounced göthe (note: not göþe) just like it's spelled.
Unless you're a Chicago bus driver, in which case it's pronounced go ee þee.
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pronunciation of Goethe
Back in the 50's, when I was studying German, I was watching Bishop Fulton J. Sheen's TV show, and he gave a quote and identified the author as "Gatey", which I found highly amusing, as the good bishop was an erudite man. He must have learned German from a Bavarian. I'm told they speak of a Mädl as having shaney baney (schöne Beine).
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"A spotty young thinker named Goethe
Was in love with his wife, wouldn't hurt 'er ... "
as opposed to the Limerick:
Asked Puzzled of London to Goethe
with "thou" is it "dost" or "do-eth"
That's an absolute stinker,
said Goethe the thinker,
Just put down whatever sounds beth.
Rod
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> He must have learned German from a Bavarian. I'm told they speak of a Mädl as having shaney baney (schöne Beine).
'Schöne Beine would be ca. 'scheene Beene', but they'd wouldn't say that.
A young girl unhappy with her figure might moan:
Baverian: I hob koa scheene Hax'n
German : Ich habe keine schöne Beine bzw. Meine Beine sind nicht schön
English : I don't have nice legs
An scheen gruass an Eicha! Sauguad!
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