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This is my first post here, please forgive me if I'm out of line...
I was wondering why the name Richard is also known as Dick
and vice versa.
I couldn't find an answer anywhere.
Yours,
Guy.
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old hand
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Welcome aboard, guy!
I don't know the answer, but along the same lines...why is Jack "short" for John? Someone help us!
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Pooh-Bah
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Hi, guy!
You aren't the only one to wonder at that transformation. Not only are there the Richard/Dick pair and the John/Jack pair, but I've also wondered at William/Bill and Robert/Bob. Just a WAG: the latter two suggest that Bs are somehow easier to pronounce and so were substituted for the original initial letters in the shortened versions, and the Dick formation might be similar. But John to Jack?
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old hand
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But John to Jack?
Just to add to the obfuscation, one finds quite a few Frenchmen named Jean-Jacques. The John/Jack pairing doesn't make any sense across the channel, it seems, since the names are clearly different.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think it all goes back several hundred years when "nicknames" were apparently widely used for children, no matter what they were christened.And many of them sound like babytalk, or the parent't imitation of it. I have seen "Hitch" as nickname for Richard,and the name "Hitchcock" meant "Little Richard." I have seen several others that I cannot recall at the moment.
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old hand
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I think it all goes back several hundred years when "nicknames" were apparently widely used for children, no matter what they were christened.And many of them sound like babytalk, or the parent't imitation of it. I have seen "Hitch" as nickname for Richard,and the name "Hitchcock" meant "Little Richard." I have seen several others that I cannot recall at the moment.After my above post, I was thinking that maybe there is no logic to it. And if enough people call me Bean, when my real name is Cristina, then maybe that will spread and in a couple of hundred years, people will be wondering how "Bean" came to be short for "Cristina". Ha ha! 
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stranger
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"I don't know the answer, but along the same lines...why is Jack "short" for John? Someone help us!"
I'm so glad to have found this discussion because I love the etymology of names. (Let me warn you that this is just speculation; do not take this for absolute truth but just my theory- nor do I guarantee that my spelling of the ancient names is correct.) As for Jack, that one is very interesting. As far as I can tell, it is derivitive more of Jacob than of John. The Hebrew name Yaakov was transliterated into Greek as Iakobos. This name then took many different paths. It turned into the various forms of Jacob, on the one hand, but in many dialects of Italian it became not just Giaccopo but Giaccomo. In French, these became Jacques, but in English, Giaccomo became James. That's why the letter of "Iacobos" in the New Testament is translated as the letter of "James." I always had thought, then, that Jack, which is like Jacques, was a nickname for James.
Perhaps the John/Jack relation is, indeed, due to mixing up "Jean" and "Jacques" in the French name Jean-Jacques, as much of the English language is adapted French. But perhaps it hearkens back to the original Hebrew name, Iokannon, from which the Greek "Ioannes" is derived, and consequently all of the modern European equivalents. But this is unlikely.
If I'm incorrect or if anyone has more complete information, your input is much desired.
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The English "William" also starts with a "G" in Italian-- and the Gallic versions of the names have came back to English as new names-- William-- drops the Wi (there is no W in gallic) and becomes Liam, John ( J too, is missing became Sean (from the french Jean-) or Ian -- James became Shamus.
I always thought Richard to Rich- to Rick to Dick.. And Margaret to Marge --Margy Meg- Meggy- Peggy.
And some might just be childish corruptions--Judith-- to Judy-- to DeeDee-- because a older brother "heard" Judy as DeeDee. That's the same way my cousin Tansy got named-- Frances to Francie to Tansy..
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An Editor I know named Robert was nicknamed "Buzz" and a Doctor of my acquaintance, Charles, is nicknamed Chappy.  Odd nicknames is but one more reason why I am happy with my name!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Nicknames can be serious matters. A recent New Yorker cartoon showed a young executive with a worried look asking another: "What does is mean when the CEO does not call you by your nickname?"
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veteran
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Nicknames are not necessarily childish. Shakespeare has lots. From King Henry IV (both his parts) we have Hal for Henry. Then there is somewhere, I forget where, Noddy for Edward.
Besides Shakespeare, Edward is also parent of Ed, Ned, Ted (also short for Theodore), and some of these have their own versions, like Eddie, Neddie, etc.
Charles has Charlie, Chuck, Chaz. Robert (I should know as in my family the first male for 4 generations now has that name and they have to have a different appellation to avoid confusion) reduces to Bob, Bobby, Rob, Robbie, occasionally Robin but that's really a different name.
Baltimore is famous for short nicknames. The ideal is a name of one syllable. My father-in-law, Elmer, was known as 'El' or 'Elm', for instance. My wife's godmother, named Ada (can't get much shorter than that) was called 'Ades' (this was before AIDS). Wierdly, if you have a one-syllable name, it gets longer as a nickname, as Ruth and Joyce become Ruthie and Joycie.
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addict
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To further confuse the situation, I just wanted to bring up what for lack of a better term I will call "descending nicknames". For example, to distinguish David Smith, Jr. from his father around the house he will often be called "D.J." or, more rarely "Chip" (as in chip off the old block - Chipper Jones of the Atlanta Braves is an example of this, I believe). D.J.'s son David might be referred to as "Tres" or "Trey" (as in French for three - Trey Anastasio from the band Phish is one of these, I understand). Anyone know of others?
Now my situation, though it may not be interesting to you, is sort of quirky. My father is the first, and takes no suffix to his name. I generally go as "Jr.", but only when it is neccessary to distinguish myself from him. The tricky bit is my cousin, who is older than I and shares the exact same name as my father and I. How does he distinguish himself from my Dad? As my father's family is not particularly close, it's never really been an issue, but it often nags at me.
Oh, and what about people who go around calling themselves Thurson Howell II (the second)? It that just pretentious or is there some genealogical reason for it?
David Provost II
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stranger
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As I live in Israel, I can at least comment about Yaakov = Jacob, Yaakov is a very common name in Israel, because it's
of it's biblical origins, I know it's translated into Jacob
in the new testament, and most Israelis named "Yaakov" living abroad use the name "Jacob", but what is interesting is the common appearances of "Jacobs" which has on translation back to Hebrew, at least...
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Pooh-Bah
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Well, my etiquette books are at home, so I hope my memory serves:
Senior and Junior designations properly apply to a parent and child with identical names, and only while both are still living. Upon the death of one, the need for and appropriateness of addressing one as a senior or junior also dies.
First, second, third, fourth designations apply to multiple people with the same names, but not necessarily in direct lines of descent, and the numbers are assigned by birth order. In Flatlander's case, it seems that his father is Eustice John Flatlander I, his cousin is Eustice John Flatlander II, and he is Eustice John Flatlander III. As I recall (and I am not sure on this, and will have to check), the I/II/III designations do not change with the death of any in the line.
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Sr,Jr,II,III, etc.
Sparteye is pretty much correct. Sr. and Jr. are father and son, Thurston Howell II would have the same name as another progenitor, usually an uncle, and III, IV, etc. follow Jr. So John Howell Sr. (who has a brother Thurston) has 2 sons, John Howell Jr. and Thurston Howell II; John Jr. has a son John Howell III, etc. As to whether Sr. or Jr. is dropped when both are no longer living, this depends on the individuals. I have known men who were Jrs. who dropped it when their father died, and have known others who have kept it, usually for professional reasons or because they have been known by that name so long they perceive a problem with dropping the Jr.
This brings up an interesting and vaguely-related subject, that of women's married names. The usual practice of a woman taking her husband's name on marriage had, traditionally, some complicated rules in etiquette, if not in law. It was formerly de rigueure to refer formally to Mary Jones, nee Doe, as Mrs. John Jones, even when she became a widow; friends could, of course, refer to her as Mary Jones, but referring to her as Mrs. Mary Jones was not considered correct. If she were divorced, however, there was a convention, not much adopted, to use the name Mrs. Doe Jones (her maiden name and husband's name).
Nowadays, there is the hyphenation system which was taken, probably, from England where it had special usages in regard to inheritances, I believe. So when John Jones marries Mary Doe, she may become Mary Doe-Jones. If John is a liberated male, he may also change his name so they both have the same name and they become John and Mary Doe-Jones. Their children usually don't take this name, however, but take the father's name. (Imagine if Algernon Doe-Jones married Maryellen Stephenson-Katzenellenbogen-- would they become Algernon and Maryellen Doe-Jones-Stephenson-Katzenellebogen?) Where would this end?
Then there is a growing tendency for women to retain their maiden names after marriage, so you have John Smith and Mary Jones as a married couple, with little Freddie and Suzie Smith. I remarked to my wife (a Registered Nurse) once that there seemed to be an unusual number of couples in our church who kept their own names and mentioned some instances. She recognized the fact that the women were physicians and explained that a physician is forbidden by law to change his/her name. Whatever name you have when you receive your MD diploma and license, you have to keep, even in the case of a woman who marries subsequently. Worse is the situation of a woman who was married and using her husband's name at the time she qualified and later is divorced -- she has to keep her former husband's name, even if she remarries.
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. Their children usually don't take this name, however, but take the father's name. (Imagine if Algernon Doe-Jones married Maryellen Stephenson-Katzenellenbogen-- would they become Algernon and Maryellen Doe-Jones-Stephenson-Katzenellebogen?)
the children primarily take the father's name in these cases? really? i'm not sure i've seen any married couples hyphenate their own names then grant but one of them to their children. in fact, in the cases of hyphenization i've seen, it's the children who take the hyphenated name, regardless of whether the parents themselves retain just their name or add their spouse's (BTW, does anyone know the norm as far as whose name goes first?).
so just think, in the case you cite above if neither of the parents chose to hyphenate but they wanted to give their children the honor of both names, you'd have to address your christmas cards to Doe-Jones, Stephenson-Katzenellenbogen and Doe-Jones-Stephenson-Katzenellebogen
hi M
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Then there is a growing tendency for women to retain their maiden names after marriage, so you have John Smith and Mary Jones as a married couple, with little Freddie and Suzie Smith. I remarked to my wife (a Registered Nurse) once that there seemed to be an unusual number of couples in our church who kept their own names and mentioned some instances. She recognized the fact that the women were physicians and explained that a physician is forbidden by law to change his/her name.
There was an intersting case hee a couple of years ago involving difficulties with changing one's surname. A man who had brothers married a woman who had none. The man decided to change his surname so that her family name could be continued. All appeared to be fine until the groom applied for a passport and discovered that NZ's Internal Affairs dept, the issuer of passports could not recognise his name change, as the legislation made no allowance for a man's adopting his wife's surname.
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enthusiast
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This thread has covered all sorts of name changes, many of which are due to phonetic alteration or language borrowing over the course of time.
However, the original question is about quite a different thing. There is no phonetic or cross-language aspect to the alteration of initial consonants. This is an odd method of making nicknames that was quite prevalent in Middle English. (I haven't any explanation for it.) Some of these no longer exist except in surnames (ending in -s or -son, e.g. Hicks, Hobson), but to repeat those already mentioned and add a few more:
Richard = Dick = Hick
Roger = Hodge
Robert = Bob = Hob
William = Bill
Margaret = Peg = Poll
Helen = Nell
Oliver = Noll
Edward = Ned = Ted
Three odd things are that the H alternants have all disappeared; and that not all common names got these forms; and that you couldn't just ring the changes on them: I don't think William ever got called Hill, Nill, Dill, or Pill.
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name changes
Interesting that in NZ one should be unable to make a desired name change. I am familiar with the English term 'deed poll', a formal application to do so, but my understanding of U.S. law is that anyone may change his/her name at any time without any formal legal process provided it is not done with the intent to defraud someone.
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Pooh-Bah
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In reply to:
but my understanding of U.S. law is that anyone may change his/her name at any time without any formal legal process provided it is not done with the intent to defraud someone.
Like everything else, BYB, it varies from state to state. You have stated the basic common law rule. Some states have not changed from that rule, some states have substituted statutory procedures, and some (like Michigan) recognize both common law and statutory procedures. For what it's worth, in issuing passports the feds will recognize a name change legitimate in the resident state, including a common law change.
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BobY ... I am so impressed. Didn't think there was anybody but me who remembered those etiquette rules for names! Mercy! Deed Poll you can do it in New Hampshire. I incorporated the name my Hawaiian friends gave me into my legal name by Deed Poll. Includes visiting Clerk of Court at the County Courthouse, filling out the form -VERY carefully - and submitting it to Clerk. I was notified when to appear before the Judge and I spent about an hour in court awaiting my turn. (A judge schedules all the Deed Poll requests for one morning a month.) He asked me "why" and he accepted my reason and that was it. The Clerk mailed me an official notice of change. Cost $30. anyone may change his/her name at any time without any formal legal process provided it is not done with the intent to defraud someone.True. My Father was baptised Francis and used Frank from about age 12. It was his legal signature. Only one boyhood friend called him Francis which caused some confusion when he visited because we called Frank Jr. Francis! Brother Francis was legally Frank Jr. and all his contemporaries called him Frank. Has anyone followed all that? Ah, well!
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Interesting that in NZ one should be unable to make a desired name change. I am familiar with the English term 'deed poll', a formal application to do so, but my understanding of U.S. law is that anyone may change his/her name at any time without any formal legal process provided it is not done with the intent to defraud someone.
The law is similar here, but, here at least, passports are legal documents, and require one's legal name on them. The man in question could have changed his name by deed poll, at a cost of around $170US. The law here apparently allows for a woman to change her legal surname to that of her husband without having to do so by deed poll, and that was the problem in the case I mentioned. The gentleman assumed that the law would allow him to do the same, but it did not. I guss that prior to applying for his passport, he had just been using his wife's surname as his own, unaware that a change by deed poll would be necessary.
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old hand
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The law is similar here, but, here at least, passports are legal documents, and require one's legal name on them. The man in question could have changed his name by deed poll, at a cost of around $170US. The law here apparently allows for a woman to change her legal surname to that of her husband without having to do so by deed poll, and that was the problem in the case I mentioned. The gentleman assumed that the law would allow him to do the same, but it did not. I guss that prior to applying for his passport, he had just been using his wife's surname as his own, unaware that a change by deed poll would be necessary.
When I got married last year (in Manitoba) I found it a little strange but also pretty neat that either husband or wife could change their name, without a "deed poll", just using our marriage certificate as proof, and the change could include hyphenating, using both as last name, moving one to a middle name and taking the new one as last name (which is what I did), or not changing at all. But both men and women could do it. I don't know...I guess I'd just assumed the laws were more archaic than that!
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When I got married last year Congratulations, Mrs. T.! 
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Congratulations, Mrs. T.!
Yes, and since we live in Canada, you could say we are part of the Eh-Team. [gagging noises]
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It is my understanding that, in Scotland, if a woman is the last of her line and she marries, she and her husband may petition the Standing Council of Chiefs to have her maiden name assumed by her husband so the line may continue.
Any Scots among us who might clarify, deny, correct or confirm?
wow
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