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Carpal Tunnel
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I didn't mean to but you on the spot Aah, but you didn't. I was happy to explain my take on it, especially because the way test assumed that one's opinion would altered by the gender of the protagonists annoyed me. Besides our divergence of opinions had shanks salivating with delight, and that was nice, 'cos he's gunner need something to spur him on to happiness soon. 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Like the porn industry, it seems to be inevitably exploitative, primarily of women
I know what you mean by this reservation, shanks. But it often seems to me that this sort of discussion takes place in a moral vacuum. If viewed relatively against the actual texture of our daily lives, how many of us are not party to some sort of contract of exploitation? When I employ a factory hand for £x per hour and they sell their time to me so that I can make £xx from the results, to pay my £xxx salary, after which the company’s principals draw their profit of £xxxx… We surely, every single member of this forum, engage on a daily basis with these relativistic exchanges of power and freedom. Is prostitution different in some way I am failing to understand? Convince me!
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addict
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addict
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Maverick asks: Is prostitution different in some way I am failing to understand?
I would say prostitution is different because usually there are no protection or buffer measures set up for prostitutes within the "exploitation" structure. Workers who have grievances against their boss or their company are backed up by committees, unions and what-not, so that anything that goes over the "accepted" levels of exploitation can be dealt with quickly and (hopefully) satisfactorily. In contrast, prostitutes are more often than not marginalised, discriminated, persecuted, in frequent danger of physical harm, and can only resolve "grievances" by going to the police (and in many places that would land them in jail). The fact that their trade is secretive and taboo prevents them from acquiring basic rights that other people who work for money expect.
I guess what I want to say is that selling sex for money is not itself any more exploitative than selling your work to the company you work for, but the conditions that these women (and men, too) do it in are exploitative.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, I entirely agree with you, Marianna. If as a society we could examine the moral arguments with a little greater clarity, then we might be better able to address these civil rights issues.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Marianna, I think you're absolutely right. The way a person chooses to exploit their abilities is their own, unless it violates another's rights. It's the lack of safeguards that's the problem -- both for the prostitutes, their customers, and even for the larger society (safe sex is not required, for instance).
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old hand
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old hand
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Mav
I think Marianna and others make the points quite well. Me, I'll stick to matters linguistic and query the phrase you have used: ...some sort of contract of exploitation...
This, to my mind, is Marxist language. Which is not necessarily bad in itself, but seems distinct from 'natural' language. In this terminology, all work for wages is exploitation, thereby depriving the natural use of the word of any meaning. I may be entering a contract which earns money for the company that pays me, that cycles over into bigger profits/pay for the people who own the company and so on - but I have made a pretty free, informed choice in this matter. Now if prostitution were habitually like that (and the set up in the Netherlands, I believe, commonly approaches that standard) then it would simply be paid work, or rather, freelance work. That's fair enough.
My problem is that exploitation, in its natural sense, occurs when, for instance, underage people, who cannot make an informed decision, are involved in the industry. Whether its the running shoe manufacturer's factory in a developing country, or the runaway teenager pumping up her courage with a cigarette as she hangs around King's Cross looking for her next 'trick', there is exploitation.
Similarly, even a grown up can be exploited if no credible options are provided that she/he can use. Again, I am not a bonded worker, and far from being a slave. I have the choice of a variety of jobs I can perform, with varying grades of commitment to the jobs, and proportional pay from them. I am aware of these options, and qualified to take advantage of them. A number of people (again, as I say, primarily women) in the sex industry (let's lump prostitution and pornography together) do not have these options, or the awareness of them, or the ability/qualifications to take them up. That, for me, is exploitation, and I haven't yet spoken of the seedier side of prostitution - the pimping, the deliberate drug addictions, the beatings, the breaking of the spirit rituals that those who make money out of it perform.
It may well be that if prostitutes were properly organised in unions, with recognition of the legitimacy of their trade, that a lot of this would be ameliorated. I don't know. What I do know is that, in our currently far from ideal world, I'd be loath to recommend it as a profession to a person I cared about - particularly if that person happened to be female. I would, as a corollary, feel no moral repugnance towards one who is a prostitute, though if I felt she was being exploited in that profession, I would certainly feel pity for her. I doubt if we've really become a mature enough society for completely well adjusted young people to take up prostitution as a legitimate career - there's a long way to go before we get there, if we ever do.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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informed decision... I am aware of these options, and qualified to take advantage...I think our beliefs probably only differ in detail of interpretation , shanks. I certainly agree with almost everything you say here. The only point I might cavil at is the kind of phrases highlighted above, which I feel can be a slippery slope. After all, the young men and women who leave school quite young and go into the local clothing factory in the town in which I live have very circumscribed choices in practice. Yet still, within the limits of their education, competence and general experience, they can be said to exercise a measure of free will in contracting their services. That really was all I wanted to draw attention to in that analogy, since I expect there are some amongst us who may have very different perspectives on the basic 'absolute morality' issue of prostitution. I feel exactly the same way in practice about sympathy for those suffering the exploitation of an unfair 'contract' of sexual abuse; just as I do for those suffering unfair abuse at other occupations (like any good Marxist business manager should!) 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thee was a book about thirty years ago by a famous madam who said there was a time in many a girl's life when she realized she had given away a million dollars.
That might be amusing if the consequences were not so grim. I hope that the increasing acceptance of women in the professions and in many occupations formerly closed to them will keep more and more women from having to make such a horrible choice,especially now that AIDS has been added to all the other "social"(a vile euphemism) diseases.
At least we have come a long way from the conditions that made the Roman "meretrix" mean "prostitute".
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Carpal Tunnel
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i think "sex industry" jobs are often a poor choice of career-- especially today-- with so many new and deadly diseases-- but the morality of it-- all lot of that is social-- and related to patriarchies--. As jewish law points out, a child of jewish mother is always jewish-- but a child of non- jewish mother and jewish father is not-- (i suspect the same held true when cultures, like india, had a "caste" systems-- or cultures where you get "born into" the society-- it is not true with all societies-- but many)
A lot of is about making sure the children your wife/spouse/partner bears are your children-- in days long before blood test or dna!
It is these cultures that create the Madonna/whore dicotomy-- they are fearful of "loose women"
in culture that have matriarchies-- where it doesn't really matter who your father is-- your family, status, inheritance is all through your mother-- prostitution is not much of an issue-- but its also much less of a choice-- since women tend to have "inherited" status-- and don't need a man to get status--or material assets!
I tend to think prostitution is exploitive-- it exist because men have "visible sign of power" (ie, money) and women have limited means of getting it-- They can use their appearance -- and trade it for a good marriage-- or they can use their families (male members of the family) to arrainge a marriage (the "groom" doesn't so much marry the bride, as he creates an alliance with the bride's family)-- but still, the women only has status as it relates to the men in her life-- and since they want to be "sure" the children are theirs-- they want to control a women sexual life-- and a woman with an uncontrolled sexual life is held in contempt.
So sexual purity becomes a value-- and sexual looseness a sin--or worse! In many cultures -- a woman can be killed for having sex outside of marriage- but the man who has sex with her is held blameless-- and even "modern" civilized cultures-- US or England-- there still remain an attitude that a woman did something "wrong" if she get raped-- and it is very hard to convict rapist-- a woman testimony isn't enough! (thank god for DNA testing-- it has become a "co-operating witness" to the crime!) and in the same societies-- prostitutes get arrested-- but "John's" go free.. two parties to the transaction, but only one is wrong. (do i see a double standard?)
There are some "sex industry" jobs-- that women enter into freely-- "exotic dancers" in many cities work as independant contractors-- and can earn very good incomes-- and prohibbit physical contact from "customers". but in most places-- prostitution is exploitive.. not morally wrong-- (but pimping is!) but a societal wrong--
It doesn't have to be exploitive--or wrong-- but it has become so...
An other point--she is called "Maid Marion"--Not Mrs (madam, mistress)-- which implies she is not married or "troth" to Robin-- so her actions are hard to define as "unfaithful". Should/does Robin have the right to deside what Marion gets to do with her body--just because he is a man?
If one gets married-- and make a promise to be "faithful"-- and "foreswears all others"-- okay, then she is breaking a vow-- but is she is Maid Marion? (the story is unclear as to whether Marion and Robin are just a "couple" or if they are "husband & wife"-- )
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Carpal Tunnel
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"thank god for DNA testing" I fully agree! This may be the "only context" in which I agree with the use of this technology for identification (crimes of violence)... and even "modern" civilized cultures-- US or England-- there still remain an attitude that a woman did something "wrong" if she get raped I find this very difficult to believe... that anyone with any sense (except for lawyers and investigators attempting to extract their respective "truths"(talk about exploitation)) truly brings this thought process forward immediately... and anyone who does won't last long in this town...  rant/ It amazes me that people ignore a sense of a whole person, yet are quick to reduce that definition (somehow) into the combination of the smallest pieces possible, and expect this to be "knowledge". (as Steely Dan says "the things that pass for knowledge - I don't understand). Notwithstanding the medical "benefits" of identifying disease causes, it is equivalent to ripping apart a Bach piece down to the notes (or better yet, some thing by Holdsworth) and "proving" to us all that either of those two are better music's.
Of course, one could just listen, hear, and know! /rantps. The US doesn't have a culture...
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