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#23663 - 03/28/01 06:37 AM Re: Ambibalance?
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
Pre Buonaparte and pre risorgimento? Maybe WCVs (White Catholic Venetians)


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#23664 - 03/28/01 06:37 AM My two paise worth
Avy Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
One of the things that amazes me when I read Shakespeare's plays is the ability of S to create characters representing themselves and not characters representing Shakespeare. While creating a character it does not seem like he ever thought "writing this character will reflect badly on me." The characters are themselves and in his dialogues too it apparent how beautifully he lets the characters speak for themselves. Such people existed in society and the fact that they entered his plays so untarnished by his own likes and dislikes I think is part of Shakespeare's greatness. It is very difficult to do. (I see a bits of GBS in all his characters)
P.S I can well imagine Shakespeare as Shakespeare thinking "I hate this character" but not letting that affect Shakespeare as the character.



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#23665 - 03/28/01 08:50 AM Re: My two paise worth
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
C.K. and shanks, good points, both. Avy, you said:
While creating a character it does not seem like he ever thought "writing this character will reflect badly on me."

Actually, I was wondering if such a thought even occurred to him. Perhaps in those times, it was "known" by all in his culture that he was portraying events only, not making any kind of commentary. Though it's possible that people knew the characters were in some way representative of the author, but didn't care. Plus, I think at that time, with so little to compare them with (compare them to?), audiences would have been primarily focused on the product, not how or why it was created, as C.K. said.

My point is that things were different in that time and at that place, and when we observe things from a different background but judge them based on our own values, we often come up with a skewed result. As shanks pointed out, one of the things that runs throughout the Bible is that slavery was a commonly-accepted practice. Today we think it's horrible, but I try to keep in mind that I should not
judge everything in the Bible as horrible because of that.

If these types of things can be looked at in context, I think we can get a much more objective view of their worth, or lack therof.


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#23666 - 03/28/01 06:21 PM Re: Ambibalance?
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
So while I may rant and rail about certain antediluvian attitudes in Shakespeare, I would not wish to see any of the plays banned.

Banns? We don' need no steenkin' banns! My reaction to those plays is visceral, not cerebral, but I would not wish to see either banned. I agree with BelM that just being written by the Bard does not make them acceptable, but I also acknowledge that that is my opinion, not objective fact. I have had this same discussion many times over the last twent years, and have come to recognise that I cannot impose 20th Century values on 16th Century art. Just don't ask me to like it, is all, except for the "hath not a Jew eyes" speech.




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#23667 - 03/29/01 03:33 AM Re: Ambibalance?
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
You may have belaboured the pun indeed! But no - no chance of it being seen as a typo! Myself, I prefer - "I say we shall have no mo marriage" (which last word, for some reason, I always pronounce in my mind as mari-yaaj, though only ever ion this context)!

Surely, however, you also like the quali"y of mercy speech - y'know - that bloomin' thing wot pisses down 'n is twoice blest? Because it 'elps the bleeder up there 'oo's relievin' himsel' and the poor sod down 'ere 'oo's sufferin' from the 'osepipe ban (there bein' a drought because we've only just gone and had the flippin' wettest year since records began, innit?)

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#23668 - 03/29/01 03:08 PM Re: Ambibalance?
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
Surely, however, you also like the quali"y of mercy speech

Great speech, though how a heartless bitch like Portia could have the chutzpah to lecture Shylock on mercy is beyond me. I guess it's a bit like an atheist vainly hoping for a false Messiah to save him and his from the Wenger boys.


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#23669 - 03/29/01 06:29 PM Re: Ambibalance?
inselpeter Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2379
Loc: New York City
<<Great speech, though how a heartless bitch like Portia could have the chutzpah to lecture Shylock on mercy is beyond me.>>

Is it really impossible that Shakespeare was an ironic son-of-a-bitch?

Binky


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#23670 - 03/29/01 08:31 PM Re: Ambibalance?
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
I admire Shakespeare very much, but have never seen one of his plays, except the movie of Henry V (I think) with Sir Laurence Olivier. It was tremendous, though I have no understanding of the changes Olivier made.
But it seems to me that a lot of the criticism here expressed does not take adequately into account the constraints imposed on Shakespeare by his audiences. If he had been "politically correct" by today's standards, not only would his plays never have been performed, he would have been lynched. Surely it is no accident that so many of the people best qualified to judge have admired him so very much for so many years.


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#23671 - 03/29/01 09:30 PM Re: Ambibalance?
Avy Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724

Do you think political correctness is the death of art?


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#23672 - 03/29/01 09:42 PM Re: Ambibalance?
inselpeter Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2379
Loc: New York City
Do you think political correctness is the death of art?

No, it is the death of conversation.


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