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#208810 - 01/08/13 01:04 AM antepenultimate
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
I just love this word. Ante is of course before, and ultimate here means final, but what's the purpose/etymology of pen, please?

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#208811 - 01/08/13 01:08 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
maverick Offline
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from Latin paene "almost" + ultimus "final"

then there's preantepenultimate, and... smile

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#208816 - 01/08/13 05:25 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
scribbler101 Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 8
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!
It's really an excellent year.
Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes,
The evil gin does would be hard to assess
(Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess)
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!"

Then there flashed though her mind what her mother had said
With her antepenultimate breath:
"Oh my child, should you look at the wine which is red
Be prepared for a fate worse than death!"

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#208818 - 01/08/13 10:36 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick]
tsuwm Offline
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Loc: this too shall pass
Originally Posted By: maverick

then there's preantepenultimate, and... smile


you can actually find this used quite a bit in discussions of stress and syllabication/syllabification.

but here's my question: preantepenultimate is often defined as 'fourth from last'; why isn't it third from the last?

ultimate: last
penultimate: next to the last
antepenultimate: second? from the last
pre~: third? from the last

unless, of course you're counting from the 'edge', as in a photo:
on the left is.. second from the left.. third from the left

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#208819 - 01/08/13 10:54 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick]
zmjezhd Offline
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Loc: R'lyeh
from Latin paene "almost"

Whence our peninsula (lit. 'almost an island').
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#208841 - 01/08/13 07:41 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: zmjezhd]
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
> island

faskinating, thanks for that nunc - I had never made that connection (a bridge too far?)

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#208842 - 01/08/13 08:10 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: tsuwm]
maverick Offline
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> you can actually find this used quite a bit in discussions of stress and syllabication/syllabification.

scene - interior, consultant's room, view of LA thro' window
Consultant: So, tell me, what triggers this overwhelming stress?
Patient: It’s the syllables, doctor – every time I see antepenultimate I get in a tizzy because I don’t know if they mean fourth from last or third from last!

but here's my question: preantepenultimate is often defined as 'fourth from last'; why isn't it third from the last?

tsory, didn't mean to ignore your question. We might some of us remember this cropping up from Anu a while ago.

It seems to me rather a confusion about what the label means – in other words, “third to last” may sound like it should be three behind the last, but the expression has grown up evidently meaning otherwise: ‘second to last’ commonly is clear as ‘the horse that came in ahead of only one other’ – it was (in this topsy-turvy inverted frame of reference) placed second, surpassed by only one in the race to the bottom.
Hm, that’s prolly as clear as mud but.

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#208844 - 01/08/13 08:15 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: scribbler101]
maverick Offline
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Posts: 4757
Originally Posted By: scribbler101
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!
It's really an excellent year.
Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes,
The evil gin does would be hard to assess
(Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess)
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!"


smile Thanks for reminding me of Flanders & Swann - underrated, and surely overdue for revival in perhaps a biographically based show...

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#208845 - 01/08/13 08:22 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick]
tsuwm Offline
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you want not clear as mud? OED has this for preantepenultimate:

That precedes or stands immediately before the antepenult; the last but three.

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#208846 - 01/08/13 08:44 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: tsuwm]
maverick Offline
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Posts: 4757
I think the confusion creeps in when you tried to specify
> antepenultimate: second? from the last [e.a.]

The common phrase I think is based on an elision:
Penultimate is ‘second [compared] to last’ whilst antepenultimate is ‘third to last’, leaving preantepenultimate in ‘fourth to last’ position (or the ‘last excepting three’ as per OED).

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#208849 - 01/08/13 11:45 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
olly Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 956
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
0 - Ultimate first
1 - Penultimate Second
2 - Antepenultimate Third
3 - Preantepenultimate Fourth

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#208857 - 01/09/13 09:37 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: olly]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Originally Posted By: olly
0 - Ultimate first
1 - Penultimate Second
2 - Antepenultimate Third
3 - Preantepenultimate Fourth


This is fine until you throw in "from last". If ultimate is "last" is it also anything "from last"? I like the OED's "last but n".

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#208864 - 01/09/13 01:51 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Faldage]
maverick Offline
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Posts: 4757
Yes, the but n~ config is nice and clear - but I think so is the use of the word to as a comparative against the defined position. The word 'from' throws confusion in the mix.

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#208882 - 01/10/13 09:09 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick]
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Registered: 11/13/00
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Loc: Northamptonshire, England
Originally Posted By: maverick
Originally Posted By: scribbler101
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!
It's really an excellent year.
Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes,
The evil gin does would be hard to assess
(Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess)
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!"


smile Thanks for reminding me of Flanders & Swann - underrated, and surely overdue for revival in perhaps a biographically based show...


I have "At the Drop of a Hat" and "At the Drop of Another Hat" on CD and giggle my way to work and back listening to them from time to time ...

Were you aware that Stephanie Flanders, the BBC's economics editor, is Michael Flanders' daughter?
_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#208891 - 01/10/13 12:28 PM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Capital Kiwi]
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
> Stephanie

Yes, I frequently chuckle when I hear her pontificating on matters economical - have some madeira, m'dear!

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#208924 - 01/11/13 12:15 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick]
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
paene -- why is this so close orthographically to paean? She said grumblingly.

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#208928 - 01/11/13 06:02 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Registered: 11/13/00
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Loc: Northamptonshire, England
Because, m'dear, some 2,000 years ago those pesky Romans decided that one Jackie Fulner, unpredictably bred out of the chaos that would follow the collapse of the empire, and living in a non-existent city in an unknown land, would be PISSED OFF AT THEM!

And the Romans liked barbarians to be pissed off at them. It gave the legions something to do besides overthrowing emperors. So it's all your fault, and don't you dare try to say other, my girl!

_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#208929 - 01/11/13 08:28 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
And that gave rise to the following sequence of bathroom graffiti:

I LIKE GRILS

YOU MEAN "GIRLS"

BUT WHAT ABOUT US GRILS?

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#208931 - 01/11/13 10:03 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
zmjezhd Offline
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Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
why is this so close orthographically to paean?

They're not that close. Latin paene 'almost' is an adverb, while Latin paean 'hymn to Apollo' is a noun and a loan from Greek Παιαν (Paian).
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#208932 - 01/11/13 11:25 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
I think she meant orthographically close to English-speaking Western eyes ...
_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#208947 - 01/12/13 12:30 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
I did, you. smile

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#208957 - 01/12/13 06:13 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
Capital Kiwi Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
Well, then ... grin
_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#208960 - 01/12/13 08:10 AM Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie]
Faldage Online   sleepy
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Not to mention that orthography and parts of speech have little, if any relation to each other.

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