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I don't doubt that these type of phrases existed before the early 20th Century, but in reading older works, particularly dialogue in older works, they are scarce. The English in which I've grown up is absolutely saturated with them. As for Jeeves, that is exactly my point. Well spoken people of a certain age were not likely to use these phrases, whereas today they are used ubiquitously.
I'm not defending the claim that their common use derives from black slang - that's only something I read somewhere, years ago - but there must be an explanation for the explosive popularity of the form in the 20th Century.
We've gone from "Let's give Bob a warm welcome" to "Give it up for Bob."
Last edited by beck123; 05/13/10 03:45 AM.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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I just noticed this:
"Wait... incomprehensible? What's incomprehensible about go off, burn up, burn down?
Nothing at all to people who have grown up with them, but they are often incomprehensible (or at least illogical) to people learning English! Which does it do? Burn up or burn down? Shouldn't those have opposite meanings? I had an acquaintance from Hungary who was mystified by the phrase "hand out," in the sense of documents distributed to attendees at a meeting. Makes perfect sense to me, but it was mumbo-jumbo to him.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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but in reading older works, particularly dialogue in older works, they are scarce
In older works the difference between spoken and written language my have been bigger. But yes, if I read: "Give it up for Bob" I wouldn't know what it means. But in the context of a meeting and in spoken language I would understand.
Prepositions are the trickiest thing in foreign languages. I will always be marked a foreigner by little mistakes in that field. Just as we can find out foreigners, even those who speak the language very well and have lived here for decades by those tiny two- or three letter words.
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they are often incomprehensible (or at least illogical) to people learning English! Which does it do? Burn up or burn down?
They're idiomatic (in the sense that you have to learn their meaning because it is not immediately apparent from the various parts)) and they're phrasal verbs, and as goofy and I have pointed out, they're something that goes back (beyond) the earliest recorded English. All language is incomprehensible to people just learning it. The solution is you have to memorize their meaning along with the verb. I am constantly confounded by idiomatic phrases in Japanese, so much so that I bought a dictionary of idioms.
That being said, if you study the verbal particles (and I own a whole bunch of monographs and books on them, going back to the late 19th century) in English can can see that they are systematic at least.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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But it's so  easy to unsystematically confuse them.
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to unsystematically confuse themActually, it's just getting the system wrong.  I consistently "conjugate" verbs incorrectly for Japanese, but my errant forms are correct for the language 500 years ago. The intervening years have seen some phonological changes that seem less systematic at first, but I am starting to get the hang of the "system". But, yes, I agree with you about the pesky left-over bits of languages, i.e., the adverby, prepositiony, particley morphemes. And tying this in with a thread down south of the fold, I have always wanted to see a study done on the use of prepositions in Esperanto with special attention to the speaker/writer's native tongue.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I don't doubt that these type of phrases existed before the early 20th Century, but in reading older works, particularly dialogue in older works, they are scarce. The English in which I've grown up is absolutely saturated with them. As for Jeeves, that is exactly my point. Well spoken people of a certain age were not likely to use these phrases, whereas today they are used ubiquitously. This could be the Recency Illusion.
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imagine my surprise ( not) to find that there is such a thing: Recency Illusion - joe (imaginary) friday
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formerly known as etaoin...
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Ah, yes; often observed in young adults, I have noticed.
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