|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
There are some good books out therre on the subject of artificial languages:
James Knowlson. 1975. Universal Language Schemes in England and France, 1600-1800.
Umberto Eco. 1995. The Search for the Perfect Language.
Marina Yaguello. 2001. Lunatic Lovers of Language: Imaginary Languages and Their Inventors.
Jean-Jacques Lecercle. 1990. The Violence of Language. (Not really about conlanging, but some coterminous fields of study.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 655
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 655 |
Great. I thank you for your trouble
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
You're welcome. I was looking for the online version of Wilkin's Essay, but it seems to have disappeared since I discovered it on the Web in the previous decade. There is another book on invented languages, that I have not read, but just found while looking at Amazon:
Arika Okrent. 2009. In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars, Klingon Poets, Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build A Perfect Language.
I skimmed the first chapter and it looks good. It's written by a linguist and has a light style.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5 |
As a biologist, I have always noted the almost perfect parallel between human language and organic evolution. Both seem to follow the same rules, at least on superficial inspection. What we call evolution should be better called degradation. I need more lines to explain my idea, but this is an entirely other subject. Let's jump to the concept of "entropy". The total entropy may well increase, but it does not prevent it to decrease locally. The "evolution" of languages was chiefly caused by illiteracy and isolation. Esperanto speakers are far from being illiterates, and they are no longer isolated in our global village. Their common characteristic is that they are respectful of their diversity, and are careful to protect the consistency of the language. Esperanto evolves, but inside some fixed rules. In fact, there are significantly less rules in Esperanto than in other languages. Esperantists are striving to decrease the entropy, and not only in the language area. More about evolution.My comment was a way of saying that compared to the natural evolution of other languages to their present states, Esperanto seems, well - is - artificial. As Esperanto rules are based on natural languages, it is difficult to define objective criteria to measure its "artificiality". To an impartial observer, Esperanto may well look like a language that evolved further than any others, like they all should if parents praised their children for their mistakes instead of correcting them. As to your other point, I'll take your word for it that there are a great and increasing number of speakers of Esperanto, but I'll offer that none have it as their sole, native language. According to some guestimates, there would be around two thousands "native speakers". I had the occasion to meet some of them. They are not significantly different from other speakers. One observed that they usually spoke Esperanto better than their parents, what is surprising only at the first sight. As Esperanto is considered as a non-language, the children speaking it feel discriminated and they tend to hide that they know Esperanto. I even met one who understood Esperanto quite well, but could not speak it any longer. My impression is that those native speakers later switch to the language used in the community where they live and study. This language become their primary language. The same phenomenon occurs with other languages than Esperanto. It seems more a useful hobby than one of the world's languages. It usually starts as a hobby. Thereafter one makes some contacts and the circle becomes larger. On the other hand, I will not take your word for it that Esperanto is growing as fast as any other natural language. [...] Klingon is growing even faster: from 1 to 20 in 5 years. Esperanto from 100 to 2 million in 100 years, in spite of two world wars. In absolute numbers, of course, Chinese is growing even faster than English. More about numbers. Remuŝ
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,918 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,918 Likes: 2 |
'academic' ... Klingon: who knows?Klingon was created by a linguist, Marc Okrand. He got his PhD (I have read his 1977 dissertation, Mutsun Grammar) from UC Berkeley. There are numerous linguistic in-jokes in Klingon. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford and worked on the staff of the OED, mainly on etymologies. L Zamenhof, the inventor of Esperanto, was a Russian ophthalmologist. The language in Quest for Fire was designed by the author (and linguist) Anthony Burgess. Not all conlangers are linguists. One of my favorite conlangs is the [url=ophthalmologist]Real Character[/url] language created by Bishop John Wilkins, a founding member of the Royal Society. Hey thanks, all new to me, with exception of Tolkien. Appreciate it.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
"It usually starts as a hobby. Thereafter one makes some contacts and the circle becomes larger."
That's why to me it seems the socializing part is the carrier of the 'movement'. Somewhat like freemasons except that this isn't secret, but yes hobbyistic. When you speak of 2000 "native speakers" that would be 2000 bilingual speakers? I suppose.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5 |
[i] When you speak of 2000 "native speakers" that would be 2000 bilingual speakers? I suppose.
More likely three-lingual. All Esperantists are bilingual by construction, they become three or four-lingual later, when they travel abroad to meet their acquaintance. The fastest way to multilingualism is through Esperanto. Unfortunately EU, in spite of its program to promote multilingualism, is opposed to Esperanto, on the ground of its alleged lack of culture, limited vocabulary and other false reasons. The English-speaking elite is afraid to set up any experiment that would disprove the claims of Esperantists. Increasing the number of native speakers of Esperanto is not the objective at all, it's a side effect. Remuŝ
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Yes, I understand you are a real enthousiast for Esperanto. And I assume also enthousiastic for understanding more than two languages. But any anyone who travels and who really loves languages; the first thing he/she does in foreign countries is try to get at it, if he/she hasn't already taken courses in advance. Then why Esperanto if you can go at it directly?
EU is not against Esperanto. It just sees no point in making it a general issue. I don't believe in an English speaking elite. English is the easiest language to learn for Europeans because it has dropped a number of otherwise tackling grammar issues.
Every (even low level) school obliges English.
I don't know how the language situation in Belgium is now. We had to learn English, French and German up to a serious level.
I know in competitions Belgians score better at correct Dutch than the Dutch in general. I assume you speak French, Flemish, obviously English and Esperanto. Any other language that has you special interest?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,918 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,918 Likes: 2 |
Europeans are so much luckier than we are. Trying to teach
a second language, back when I did so, was so difficult, as
no one spoke any of them that were taught. Many people spoke
the language their emigre grandparents and parents brought
from Europe, et. al. but quickly learned English, disparaging
in many cases, their native languages. Spanish is now becoming
a "second" language here, but others not so much.
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Luke, I had the same experience of even foreign languages teachers* having to learn it first, and I wonder if it is due to geography: we in the middle of the U.S. got significant numbers of immigrants far later than coastal areas?
*With the exception of my college professor who was French-Canadian, and warned us that her French wasn't Parisian.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,345
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
718
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
