Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
wsieber Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
Interesting comments have been made, thank you, yet I still miss a direct answer to my question. It does not concern grammatical gender, but the choice between the pronoun "it", which refers to the animal as a thing, and the alternative "he" viz. "she". Would anybody use "he" or "she" for a rat, a mouse, a goldfish or a louse?

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Dunno about the louse, but the others I could easily see being called "he" or "she." Depending, of course. If you're looking for a hard and fast, rule-bound answer, I don't think you're going to get one. I do hear "he" quite frequently for insects, even when it is biologically inappropriate, e.g., ants, bees, or blood-sucking mosquitoes.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
'Would anybody use "he" or "she" for a rat, a mouse, a goldfish or a louse?'

To the extent that the first three are pets, I think they would be referred to with correct gender if it is known. Wild mice scurrying behind the refrigerator or rats who find their way to the chicken feed are almost always "its." Likewise, a louse is most commonly called an "it," unless it refers to a specimen of the human species, in which case it is also occasionally referred to as an "it" but mostly, in that instance, for emphasis.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Would it not depend on the 'emotional attachment' to whatever creature? I can imagine an isolated prisoner having dear conversations with one or some of his lice. Might even give them gender related proper names.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
There used to be an unwritten (?) rule that if the gender (be it of a human or a creature) was either not known or not specified, the masculine was used. AFAIK, Women's Lib changed that, so it's speaker's/writer's choice now.

Jackie #186920 09/23/09 12:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: Jackie
AFAIK, Women's Lib changed that


If you're talking about singular they it goes back to King Alfred (849-899}

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
singular they

If you want to read a nice history of the usage, here's the MWDEU (link) and a blog entry I just happened to read t'other day (link). The blogger of the latter is a graduate student in linguistics at UCSD. The irony is, how wrong folks usually are about when something started: it's even got a name, the recency fallacy and it's usually blamed on the author's favorite other.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956
Good read.

I tend to refer to things such as the weather in a feminine sense as well. She's blowin a gale, She's gonna rain today. Even things such as the ocean, the air, space, she's a big old universe out there. It(She) maybe a cultural thing.

olly #186942 09/23/09 09:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
For whatever reason, boats are traditionally referred to in the feminine, as are cars often. I don't know if this is exclusive to the US, but suspect it started across the pond. I've always thought it was definitely rooted in sexism. The big powerful boat may be female, but she's nothing without a man to guide her.... that sort of crap. Nowadays boats can guide themselves; at least this boat does!

Goldfish are impossible to sex, as are some birds, but we have some guppies, and they are referred to appropriately.

Coincidentally, the Bible passage last Sunday was James 9:36 "Then he took a little child and put it among them; and taking it in his arms, he said to them..." I found this very curious. The version is NRSV, which differs from nearly all other versions with its use of the neuter "it". I don't know what research was done to prompt such a change, but I thought it was interesting.

Also interesting to me is that people in the US seem uncomfortable referring to a fetus as "it", and want the mother to either find out ASAP, or guess and use one or the other. To me this indicates the perception of objectification of people, which is apparently unacceptable. I like that. But I still didn't "find out" what sex any of my babies were before they were born. Life these days holds few surprises, and I wanted some! I do ramble on, though.... :0)

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
I hear it used for babies often, but usually in the question, "Is it a boy or a girl?" In our FWIW Dept. cild, 'child' in Old English was neuter.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,333
Members9,182
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
Ineffable, ddrinnan, TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV
9,182 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 743 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
wofahulicodoc 10,542
tsuwm 10,542
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5