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#177719 - 06/24/08 06:07 AM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: mistermr]
Go.- It'sRed Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 1
Hi, this is my first time to this board and so far I like what I see.

Yes, I have seen many churches shorten the Church's proper name by adding that apostrophe. Most Churches, as most everyone seems to know already, go by a more formal appellation such as, "Church of the Good Shepherd" or "St. Ann Church," or even, "Cathedral of Saints Peter and Paul."

Now, back to that topic starter - the sign that read, "Please Drive Carefully, for our childrens sake. What a mess that is.

Shouldn't it actually read this way? [i]Please drive carefully, for our childrens' sakes.[i]

MisterMr., I got a laugh out of yours: "Give it to me, it's mines." In the hills of Western Pa., which is where my mother was born and raised, the townsfolk would refer to "You" in the plural not as another "you," but, rather, as "Youins." Such as, "Are you-ins going to the movies this afternoon?"

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#177720 - 06/24/08 06:24 AM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: Go.- It'sRed]
The Pook Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1067
Loc: Tasmania
 Originally Posted By: Go.- It'sRed
Hi, this is my first time to this board and so far I like what I see.

Welcome. Give it time, that may change... \:D

 Quote:
MisterMr., I got a laugh out of yours: "Give it to me, it's mines." In the hills of Western Pa., which is where my mother was born and raised, the townsfolk would refer to "You" in the plural not as another "you," but, rather, as "Youins." Such as, "Are you-ins going to the movies this afternoon?"

In Australia we also compensate for the paucity of 'normal' English due to its having dropped the old forms for the plural second person pronouns (ye, thee, thy, thine) by inventing our own. We, being the laziest people on the planet (and now apparently officially the fattest) take the path of least effort and simply add 's'. The plural of you is yous. (pronounced as in the plural a female sheep), The same sentence in 'Strine' (Australian) would be something like "Yous garnter the flicks sarvo?"


Edited by The Pook (06/24/08 06:33 AM)

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#177722 - 06/24/08 06:49 AM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: Go.- It'sRed]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
 Originally Posted By: Go.- It'sRed


Now, back to that topic starter - the sign that read, "Please Drive Carefully, for our childrens sake. What a mess that is.

Shouldn't it actually read this way? Please drive carefully, for our childrens' sakes.


I beleive this was addressed elsewhere, but the correct version would be Please drive carefully, for our children's sake. Two points here. The plural possessive is an apostrophe after the s if the s is a plural marker and the sake in question is one sake jointly applying to all the children.

 Originally Posted By: Go.- It'sRed
In the hills of Western Pa., which is where my mother was born and raised, the townsfolk would refer to "You" in the plural not as another "you," but, rather, as "Youins." Such as, "Are you-ins going to the movies this afternoon?"


Just another example of the strength of the language, changing to adapt to the potentially ambiguous solecism of using the second person plural pronoun as a singular. That there has been no corresponding change in the language to correct for the change that dropped the nominative form of the second person pronoun, ye, suggests to me that the distinction in form between the nominative and the objective (dative/accusative) is mostly unnecessary.

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#177733 - 06/24/08 10:55 AM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: Faldage]
The Pook Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1067
Loc: Tasmania
Personally I don't think children should be given sake.

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#177739 - 06/24/08 02:02 PM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: The Pook]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6589
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Personally, I think the genitive, indicating possession, might be OK in Romance Languages. But St. Bernard does not own the church named after him, and it is perpetrating a misuse. I do understand the basilica di san pietro bit, but that is Italian.
Does the apostrophe s mean possesion? Or am I just totally confused?
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#177740 - 06/24/08 02:04 PM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: LukeJavan8]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6589
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
to continue: why is the 's' or apostrophe s added at all? Is it needed?
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#177742 - 06/24/08 02:44 PM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: LukeJavan8]
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I thought that spiritual ownership, as in St. Mary's was implied in those cases where the school or church did not originally belong to the order named for that particular saint.

PS to Jackie I like the new layout, much easier to read on my screen.

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#177775 - 06/25/08 10:06 AM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
Some linguists don't think that the possessive s in English is a genitive case. Whatever you call the feature (in English), the Wikipedia on the genitive (link) has a nice list of the different uses:
 Quote:
  • possession (see Possessive case):
    - inalienable possession ("Janet's height", "Janet's existence", "Janet's long fingers")
    - alienable possession ("Janet's jacket", "Janet's drink")
    - relationship indicated by the noun being modified ("Janet's husband")
  • composition (see Partitive case):
    - substance ("a wheel of cheese")
    - elements ("a group of men")
    - source ("a portion of the food")
  • participation in an action:
    - as an agent ("my leaving") this is called the subjective genitive
    - as a patient ("the archduke's murder") this is called the objective genitive
  • origin ("men of Rome")
  • description ("man of honour", "day of reckoning")
  • compounds (Scottish Gaelic "ball coise" = "football", where "coise" = gen. of "cas", "foot")

As far as the naming of churches in English goes, the Saint-Name's seems a well-established usage: e.g., St Paul's Cathedral in London. But this is my favorite punctuational prescript in a long time.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#177783 - 06/25/08 04:49 PM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6589
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
The more I see the discussion on it, the more I see how wide-spread it really is, e.g. , St. Peter's, Rome; St. Paul's, London.As for being a favorite punctual pre-script, I am not sure I understand what that means, the discussion has been neat and helpful, but the 's on a Church name bugs the bejiggers out of me.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#177786 - 06/25/08 05:25 PM Re: the apostrophe as discussed today in wordsmith. [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
As for being a favorite punctual pre-script, I am not sure I understand what that means, the discussion has been neat and helpful, but the 's on a Church name bugs the bejiggers out of me.

I understand that. You're in the right place. Everybody who posts on this board is interested in some part of the wonderful world of language and words, and everybody has their personal set of pet peeves on the subject. What I meant to say was that I find your particular pet peeve intriguing and unique, but I don't see any reason for adopting it other than whim. Punctuational meaning 'having to do with punctuation and prescript 'something prescribed' (link) playing on the oft-discussed (on this board and others) divide between prescriptivists and descriptivists, into which latter group I fall. And welcome aboard. I hope you stay and keep posting.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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