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#173032 - 01/30/08 06:41 PM Re: Cingular [Re: belMarduk]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: belMarduk
There are too many ifs to excuse the techniques used by shifty sales people and not enough laws to protect those people they take advantage of. You can't blame a gullible person for being gullible, but you can certainly blame somebody for taking advantage of them.


agreed. I guess I'm saying we can't always blame the caller who's just trying to put food on the table. it's a sucky job, and it's a shame that anyone needs to do it.
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#173046 - 01/31/08 11:22 AM Re: Cingular [Re: belMarduk]
Maven Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 120
Loc: California
I think there's enough blame to go around.

While I agree that it's sad people get swindled, I don't want more laws restricting behavior and activities. At some point in time, these laws cease to protect people and simply absolve them from responsibility for their own actions.


Edited by Maven (01/31/08 11:22 AM)
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#173124 - 02/02/08 09:43 PM Re: Cingular [Re: Maven]
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
At some point in time, these laws cease to protect people and simply absolve them from responsibility for their own actions. Whoa! Interesting idea. Can you give any examples, real or theoretical?

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#173128 - 02/03/08 04:53 AM Re: Cingular [Re: Jackie]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
I think the law is not able to protect people from anything in the first place. It can set things right if it is sensibly and succesfully applied or enforced. And in going on to do so it may be a foothold and guideline to human social conduct.

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#173133 - 02/03/08 09:39 AM Re: Cingular [Re: BranShea]
Porcupine Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 29
Loc: New Mexico
I think of the idea of justice being blind. If justice is blind, then the juggernaut of bureaucracy is going to leave behind a trail of citizens who are not truly criminals but are being punished as such. But if justice is not blind, then is any human being capable of deciding when to make exceptions?

I think of a woman in an abusive relationship who has exhausted all legal means of protecting herself and her children and out of self-defense murders her husband, and then is tried and convicted (her gender will work against her; misogyny is rampant in the justice system) and sentenced to life in prison. It's not fair, but she did commit a crime.

Sorry, I know this is not word related, but it's such an interesting topic!

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#173163 - 02/04/08 10:54 AM Re: Cingular [Re: Porcupine]
Maven Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 120
Loc: California
I was thinking of laws that limit action in an attempt to 'save' citizens from themselves. Banning trans-fats from restaurants, for example, which implies that restaurants are to blame for the porcine rear-ends rather than the over-indulgant mouths feeding them. Lawsuits from heart attack victims are sure to follow, in my cynical opinion.

Another potential law that rings of a bail-out-turned-cop-out can be found in many of the proposed legal solutions to the current US housing market slump. So many lenders extended credit to poor risks, who in turn failed to grasp their legal liability in purchasing a house with an ARM or interest-only loan that now the housing market is on the verge of collapse. Many of the propostions being bantied about put the blame on the lenders, absolving from accountability those who signed their name on the dotted line. Three years ago as this crisis was dot on the horizon, there were complaints that lenders were taking advantage of home buyers who didn't understand the paperwork. In my less than complimentary opinion, that it not the fault of the lender! When I purchased my house, I was asked if I understood the contents for every single page I signed. If I said yes dishonestly, how could that be the fault of the lender? Laws passed to prevent this sort of thing will be unwieldy at best, and a poor service to the careful buyer.

Sorry--off topic ranting, as is my wont.
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#173164 - 02/04/08 11:04 AM Re: Cingular [Re: Porcupine]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Ah, somehow missed this one. My sceptisism versus the law is more preoccupied with the ones that are not convicted, although they are clearly guilty as hell. Slick tricks and the right to remain silent and the fact that when you lie often enough to blurr all sight on the thruth can make you walk free.
Those always itch me.(OK, not word related)Seems like Justice has banned out her hearing as well.

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#173172 - 02/04/08 01:21 PM Re: Cingular [Re: Maven]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Maven
Three years ago as this crisis was dot on the horizon, there were complaints that lenders were taking advantage of home buyers who didn't understand the paperwork. In my less than complimentary opinion, that it not the fault of the lender! When I purchased my house, I was asked if I understood the contents for every single page I signed. If I said yes dishonestly, how could that be the fault of the lender? Laws passed to prevent this sort of thing will be unwieldy at best, and a poor service to the careful buyer..


I understand, but if I was asked to sign off on understanding the theory of relativity so I could own a house, I probably would. what I really mean is that the language used in those contracts, carefully chosen by the lender, is enough to obfuscate anyone.
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#173177 - 02/04/08 03:24 PM Re: Cingular [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
Maven Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 120
Loc: California
"No I don't understand. Please explain it to me."

Repeat as needed. If the downsides of an ARM are beyond grasp, home ownership is likely not a good idea.
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#173178 - 02/04/08 03:35 PM Re: Cingular [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
tsuwm Offline
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Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10521
Loc: this too shall pass
Quote:
the language used in those contracts, carefully chosen by the lender, is enough to obfuscate anyone.


not to turn this into a word thread, but does this use of 'obfuscate' bother anyone?

-joe (it's probly just me) friday

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