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#168297 - 05/17/07 07:48 PM The origin of the word/name Penelope
Penelope E. Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 1
Long ago in a college course on classical mythology, the professor--Dr. Leichty (but that may be misspelled)--discussed the origins of the name Penelope. According to him, it derived from an earlier story about the birth of the woman who would later be the wife of Odysseus. Briefly, the story was that her father considered her to be an unwelcome newborn and decided, according to the custom of that ancient place, to "dispose" of the baby by flinging her far out off the island's high cliffs to fall to the rocks edging the sea far below. To his surprise, a flock of "small purple pin-striped ducks," of a breed that nests in the seaside cliffs, suddenly flew up in a tight formation, caught the falling child on their backs, and bore her back to the cliff top, depositing her at the feet of her astonished father. Being no fool, he decided that this child must be a favorite of the gods and should be brought up accordingly. She was given the name Penelope because, I was told, that was the archaic Greek name for the breed of little ducks that had rescued her.

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#168310 - 05/18/07 05:15 PM Re: The origin of the word/name Penelope [Re: Penelope E.]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Hello Penelope,

I have several things on the subject for you:

Online Etymology
1. Penelope
fem. proper name, name of the faithful wife in the "Odyssey," from Gk. Penelopeia, probably related to pene "thread on the bobbin." Used as the type of the virtuous wife (1581) as it was in Latin.
2. Bobbin
1530, from Fr. bobine, small instrument used in sewing or tapestry-making, probably connected with bobbinet "cotton net," or perhaps from L. balbus (see babble </index.php?term=babble>) for the stuttering, stammering noise it made.

Webster Online Dictionary
3a. (Greek mythology) the wife of Odysseus and a symbol of devotion and fidelity; for 10 years while Odysseus fought the Trojan War she resisted numerous suitors until Odysseus returned and killed them.
3b. A genus of guans (turkey-like arboreal birds valued as game and food birds).

First two are from online Etymology.
Three, a + b are from Webster Online.


There seem to be some incoherences.

Etymology leaves out the bird connection at all and
Webster's Dictionary mentions a different kind of bird.

There seems to be some melting together of things, both in the definitions and the story.
I can't think of any ducks that live in trees. Or are there?

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#168379 - 05/21/07 04:36 PM Re: The origin of the word/name Penelope [Re: BranShea]
Maven Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 120
Loc: California
Penelops are a species of duck, and do not live in trees. There is some connection, maybe, since it was thought that ducks were monogamous. But, depending on how much faith you have in Wikipedia entries:

Quote:

Her name is close to the Greek word for duck but is usually understood to be a combination of the Greek word for web or woof (πηνη) and the word for eye or face (ωψ), very appropriate for a weaver of cunning whose motivation is hard to decipher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope
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#171425 - 11/17/07 04:10 AM Re: The origin of the word/name Penelope [Re: Maven]
R. Eastcourt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Hungarian Gypsy
Penelopes Web, A work that never progresses. Penelope, the wife of Ulysses, being importuned by several suitors during her husband's long absence, made reply that she could not marry again, even if Ulysses were dead, till she had finished weaving a shroud for her aged father-in-law. Every night she pulled out what she had woven during the day, and thus the shroud made no progress toward completion.-Greek Mythology.
The French say of a work "never ending, still beginning," c'est l'ouvrage de Penelope.


I prefer Penelope Lapham, a vivacious, but not too pretty daughter of Silas Lapham (1812-1887). Ultimately, Penelope wins the love of her sisters' suitor, despite her sister's skin-deep beauty. This unintentional conquest brings painful complexity to herself, and anguish to her sister. Finally, she yields to her sister's magnaminity, and to the persuasions of her suitor, Tom Corey. Ultimately, Penelope weds Tom.
This is from W.D. Howelles, The Rise of Silas Lapham (1887).

I hope this helped.

Tom


Edited by R. Eastcourt (11/17/07 04:34 AM)

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#171430 - 11/17/07 10:08 AM The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: R. Eastcourt]
varaha Offline
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Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Mt Meru
Howelles

What a coinkydinky. There was another book, also called The Rise of Silas Lapham, that was written by a William Dean Howells but published two years earlier.

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#171433 - 11/17/07 11:16 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: varaha]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
The dingycoinky is a that it is William Dean Howells' The rise of Silas Lapham 1885. Hi, never mind.

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#171446 - 11/18/07 12:03 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: varaha]
R. Eastcourt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Hungarian Gypsy
Originally Posted By: varaha
Howelles

What a coinkydinky. There was another book, also called The Rise of Silas Lapham, that was written by a William Dean Howells but published two years earlier.


How serendipitous! As I was searching my source I found a wonderful print of Mr. Pecksniff, " architect and land surveyor". -C Dickens, Martin Chuzzelwit(1843)

Yes, I had too many e's. My source is: The Rev. E. Cobham Brewer, LL.D, Character Sketches of Romance, Fiction, and the Drama, vol.v, M C M I I

The entry on page 181, under Penelope Lapham footnotes, -W. D. Howells, The Rise of Silas Lapham, (1887).

Perhaps the good Reverend made a mistake and Wikipedia is correct.

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#171447 - 11/18/07 12:09 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: BranShea]
R. Eastcourt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Hungarian Gypsy
Originally Posted By: BranShea
The dingycoinky is a that it is William Dean Howells' The rise of Silas Lapham 1885. Hi, never mind.


Duplicitous word fungo!! I love it!!

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#171448 - 11/18/07 12:42 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: R. Eastcourt]
varaha Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Mt Meru
Perhaps the good Reverend made a mistake and Wikipedia is correct.

Perhaps, but my reference was the William Dean Howells Society chronology page. (I see that Wiipedia agrees with them, and they could be correct part of the time if only by chance.) And, for what it's worth, my dead-tree, 11th edition Britannica (1910) gives 1885 as the publication date, but then they could very well be wrong, too. Caveat lector!

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#171449 - 11/18/07 01:46 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: varaha]
R. Eastcourt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Hungarian Gypsy
Ye Gads, Ebenezer! This is bigger than the bofus!

The editor is Marion Harland. I would supply a link but I am too lazy to learn how to do this. Besides, it's a Wiki.


Edited by R. Eastcourt (11/18/07 02:10 PM)

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#171474 - 11/20/07 11:14 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: BranShea]
R. Eastcourt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Hungarian Gypsy
Originally Posted By: BranShea
The dingycoinky is a that it is William Dean Howells' The rise of Silas Lapham 1885. Hi, never mind.

As if the day could be more grey, I was stunned to discover that my favorite little family-owned pharmacy had been purchased by the Rite-Aide, pharmaceutical chain. The crawling ad on the shiny new parking lot sign read: Budweiser 18-packs, $14.99.

I thought....what a dingycoinky is a this?!


Edited by R. Eastcourt (11/20/07 11:30 AM)

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#171475 - 11/20/07 11:23 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: BranShea]
R. Eastcourt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Hungarian Gypsy
Originally Posted By: BranShea
The dingycoinky is a that it is William Dean Howells' The rise of Silas Lapham 1885. Hi, never mind.


........waiting breathlessly for (b:)

never mind


Edited by R. Eastcourt (11/20/07 02:03 PM)

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#181032 - 12/19/08 01:48 PM Origin of the name Penelope [Re: R. Eastcourt]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
\\

Check out on Google/Yahoo:

The Etymology and History of First Names.

terrific resource.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199386 - 04/25/11 10:43 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Penelope E.]
Myrmhgki Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3
Πηνελόπη =

from the ancient greek words πήνη (thread) + λέπω (unwind), meaning she who weaves

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#199395 - 04/25/11 11:15 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Myrmhgki]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
WELCOME MYRMHGKI
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#199451 - 04/26/11 11:12 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: LukeJavan8]
Tromboniator Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 821
Loc: Alaska
Penelope – from pen-: almost + elope: to run away from one's husband with a lover

Odysseus was gone so long that his wife was tempted on many occasions to run away with men who courted her, yet she always thought better of it.

Also derived from her name: the slip-on shoes she wore were called Penelopers, which over the centuries was corrupted to penny-loafers.

Sorry, I'm running a bit of a fever.

Peter

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#199455 - 04/27/11 10:47 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10522
Loc: this too shall pass
>penny-loafers

and (who knew?) the original penny-loafer medallion actually featured an image taken from a Greek bust of Penelope!

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#199479 - 04/29/11 05:20 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Penelope E.]
Tromboniator Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 821
Loc: Alaska
She had sole, and could make love last. She was quite a vamp, but she wouldn't go out with heels.

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#199483 - 04/29/11 08:43 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Originally Posted By: Tromboniator
She had sole,
and could fry it fast.

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#199486 - 04/29/11 11:06 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
fish and chips???
_________________________
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#199490 - 04/29/11 12:36 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: LukeJavan8]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Ah the sole, the sole is too uppity class for fish and chips. It's quisine. Sole Picasso, Sole à la Meunière. Fish with capitals.

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#199492 - 04/29/11 02:06 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Penelope E.]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
well, this is the plaice for that.
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formerly known as etaoin...

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#199493 - 04/29/11 02:09 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Living 1000 miles from any ocean I wouldn't know one from another,
other than in a market.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199505 - 04/29/11 09:15 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: LukeJavan8]
Tromboniator Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 821
Loc: Alaska
Here it's about a mile as the raven flies, and mostly halibut and salmon. And usually a gift from friends. No complaints.

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#199524 - 04/30/11 10:47 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Checked a slab of salmon (about 16 inches,frozen) at the market
yesterday. Cost: $15.88. I'd not complain either. Lucky you.


Edited by LukeJavan8 (04/30/11 10:48 AM)
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#199560 - 05/01/11 09:16 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
Cost: $15.88.

That's less than a dollar an inch.

[Corrected by order of the Avoirdupois Police.]


Edited by zmjezhd (05/01/11 12:30 PM)
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#199565 - 05/01/11 11:15 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: zmjezhd]
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10522
Loc: this too shall pass
actually, that's less than a dollar an inch.
-joe (yours for better math) friday

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#199567 - 05/01/11 11:34 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: tsuwm]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
I thought you had me on "ignore". You certainly paid
attention to that posting.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199570 - 05/01/11 12:29 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: tsuwm]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
actually, that's less than a dollar an inch.

So it is.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#199572 - 05/01/11 01:25 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: tsuwm]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Believe me, I'm not fretting. I don't have the problem.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199576 - 05/01/11 04:57 PM Re: raven seagull sparrow crow [Re: Tromboniator]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
'Here it's about a mile as the raven flies'
Random quotes:

"similar to those found at Calamity Butte which is located about 8 miles as the raven flies"

"Situated 1 mile as the seagull flies from Porth Beach"

"on the beach at Oregon Inlet on the OBX, about 20 miles as the sparrow flies from Alligator River NWR"

"And I won't wait for morning light. I'd come straight as the crow flies ..."


"Now to the Goths, as swift as swallow flies"

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#199580 - 05/01/11 07:37 PM Re: raven seagull sparrow crow [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Hereabouts "as the crow flies" is what is heard the most.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199582 - 05/02/11 02:51 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tromboniator
Here it's about a mile as the raven flies, and mostly halibut and salmon. And usually a gift from friends. No complaints.


Here it is as the crow flies. I have never heard of as the salmon flies, let alone the halibut.

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#199586 - 05/02/11 06:42 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Penelope E.]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
You know how it is, Zed. In the words of the old song, "Birds gotta swim, fish gotta fly."

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#199602 - 05/03/11 07:28 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Faldage]
Tromboniator Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 821
Loc: Alaska
"I gotta love one woman till I die."

Edit: It's "as the crow flies" here, too. Poetic license: I actually have one on my wall.

Edit 2: Sorry, Faldage, I was thinking of "Sharks gotta swim, bats gotta fly."


Edited by Tromboniator (05/03/11 07:34 AM)

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#199606 - 05/03/11 10:41 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
A crow on your wall??
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199612 - 05/03/11 10:14 PM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: LukeJavan8]
Tromboniator Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 821
Loc: Alaska
Uh, that would be the poetic license.

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#199619 - 05/04/11 10:41 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Reminds me: "he was a poet, but did not know it, but his feet
showed it, they were longfellows".
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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#199649 - 05/05/11 03:14 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: LukeJavan8]
Tromboniator Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 821
Loc: Alaska
Yes, I've gotten my Wadsworth out of that over the years.

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#199655 - 05/05/11 11:17 AM Re: The origin of Pierre Menard [Re: Tromboniator]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6487
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
For some of us, "back in the day" is further back than so many
others. I've not heard it in a very long time.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

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