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Would present participle "blinging" be a synonym?
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Not a reply, just a quick reflex on the XBonus:
OUCH!
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not a reply; just a response to Anu's "There are times, however, when I just have to reach into my grab-bag of loose words and offer them while I think of a new topic. It's one of those weeks."
I can relate -- most of my weeks are like this!
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Today's word 'clinquant' gets me to words that can be used in both active and a passive ways. In the details on the word 'clinquant' the dutch word 'klinken'turns up.I gave it a second look as this is a native laguage word. Klinken is used passively in: Deze klinken goed. = These sound well, or good. But it is also used actively: used as: toasting a drink. "Zullen we hier op klinken?" = "Shall we have a toast on this?", hitting glasses against eachother. (If you do this too hard you'll end up with little clinqants).  I try to think of english words that can be used both passive- and actively, but I can't find any. Are there?
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In French, "clinquant" is clearly derogatory. Jewels that are "clinquant" are either imitation or they are showy and vulgar. Mark Twain's book "The Gilded Age" was translated as "l'âge du clinquant" (to translate the difference between "golden age" and "gilded age"). In the example given, the word does not sound derogatory at all in English.What do native speakers think of it (I'm French)? Is it derogatery or not in English?
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Quote:
In French, "clinquant" is clearly derogatory. Jewels that are "clinquant" are either imitation or they are showy and vulgar. Mark Twain's book "The Gilded Age" was translated as "l'âge du clinquant" (to translate the difference between "golden age" and "gilded age"). In the example given, the word does not sound derogatory at all in English.What do native speakers think of it (I'm French)? Is it derogatery or not in English?
I would love to hear that answer too. I also thought the word meant something like cheap, fake materials.
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the 1913 Webster's has "glittering of gold or silver";
MWCD has "glittering of gold or tinsel". go figure..
OED2 shows us the meaning drift in action:
A. adj. Glittering with gold or silver, and hence with metallic imitations of these; tinselled, ‘dressed in spangles’ (J.).
1613 SHAKES. Hen. VIII, I. i. 19 The French, All Clinquant all in Gold, like Heathen Gods Shone downe the English. 1623 FLETCHER & ROWLEY Maid Mill V. ii, A clinquant petticoat of some rich stuff, To catch the eye. 1635 BROME Sparagus Garden III. v, Courtiers Clinquant, and no counterfeit stuffe upon 'hem. 1658 OSBORN Adv. Son (1673) 200 A gentile Garb and decent Habit: yet..not Clinckant or Rich, since Gold lace, Rings or Jewels, hath not seldom rendred Travellers the prey of Braves and Murderers. 1676 SHADWELL Virtuoso III. i, Fine sparks..very clinquent, slight, and bright..make a very pretty show at first; but the Tinsel-Gentlemen do so tarnish in the wearing. 1839 Fraser's Mag. 115 In ‘clinquant gold’ the sovereign sun walks round.
b. fig.
1613 CHAPMAN Masque Inns Crt. Plays 1873 III. 110 Inure thy souldiers to hardnes, tis honorable, though not clinkant. 1682 SHADWELL Medal Ep. Ab, He has an easiness in Rime, and a knack at Versifying, and can make a slight thing seem pretty and clinquant.
B. n. [Fr. clinquant was short for or clinquant, and originally meant real gold in leaf or thin plates, used for decorative purposes. Thence it was extended to imitations.]
1. Imitation of gold leaf; tinsel; Dutch gold.
1691 RAY N.C. Wds., Clincquant, brass thinly wrought out into leaves. 1874 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. I. 65/2 s.v. Alloy, Clinquant, same as yellow copper, Dutch gold.
2. Literary or artistic ‘tinsel’, false glitter.
1711 ADDISON Spect. No. 5 {page}5, I..agree with Monsieur Boileau, that one Verse in Virgil is worth all the Clincant or Tinsel of Tasso [le clinquant du Tasse]. 1762-71 H. WALPOLE Vertue's Anecd. Paint. (1786) III. 27 Lely supplied the want of taste with clinquant. 1839 Fraser's Mag. XIX. 65 The worst portion of the silly bits of clinquant strung together, and called gems of beauty.
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Good heavens! That's a lot of scintillating information. Thank you, Tsuwm!(and your scources)
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Does the French "clinquant" also imply the sound made by the metal bits striking each other, as the Dutch "klinken" does?
Looking up "bling," "bling bling" and "blinging" in the Urban Dictionary, I found references to the cartoon sound effect of light striking a shiny bit of jewelry. Also, "bling" refers both to the real thing (diamonds, gold, any expensive shiny thing) and cheap imitations.
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Pooh-Bah
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Bling doesn't imply fake but often implies showy or gaudy, at least to me. A gold wedding band is not bling, giant rap star or Mr. T jewellery is.
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>
giant rap star
how big do they have to be to qualify as giant?
:¬ )
formerly known as etaoin...
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Pooh-Bah
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or rap stars in giant pants even
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My exiguous, tiny little question: if there are any english verbes that are used both in an active as well as in a passive way still hangs out there . My hope was in experts or other fanatics.  This week's quotes seem to be every day in association with the justice and wisdom of power. At the not so positve actual state of these matters.
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Quote:
My exiguous, tiny little question: if there are any english verbes that are used both in an active as well as in a passive way still hangs out there . My hope was in experts or other fanatics.
There are so many I can't begin to count.
http://tinyurl.com/hx7jo
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So, Anna--are you an expert or a fanatic? 
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I think he was asking after English verbs that are active in form, but passive in meaning. Latin has a whole slew of verbs that are passive in form but active in meaning. They are called deponent verbs: cf. amo 'I love' vs amor 'I am loved' with loquor 'I speak'. I'm not sure the first Dutch sentence is passive in meaning, but I'll take his word for it.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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[ There are so many I can't begin to count. http://tinyurl.com/hx7jo
Ah! Dear Annie, it's not the same thing , it isn't the same.
For the passive form english needs an extra word!
To give - to be given , or give - was given. I know that system.
Maybe, there is a chance that I am mistaken, but I would need a dutch
exp. or fan. for that.
It's a little confusing.Let me see.
There is a saying:
Hollow barrels - sound - the loudest. (not a real english construction , but I try to keep the sentences as close as possible to eachother.)
Holle vaten - klinken - het hardst.
Here klinken is used in an active way.
I think I was wrong. The two klinkens are both active. They just have a different meaning.
It's the listener that is passive, but something/one always produces the sound. And the sound - klinken is an immaterial thing, while the toasting is material as long as the glasses hold.
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Quote:
Latin has a whole slew of verbs that are passive in form but active in meaning. They are called deponent verbs: cf. amo 'I love' vs amor 'I am loved' with loquor 'I speak'. I'm not sure the first Dutch sentence is passive in meaning, but I'll take his word for it.
You took my word for it but I take it back, shame on me , I was wrong!In the first sentence in the first post it was not a passive form. The difference lies in the meaning of the word klinken itself. It's just a simple subject-verb-adverb sentence. Active.
I have more trust in your latin. And it's a she, not a he.
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What about 'said', as in, "It was often said that he said it aloud"?
ÅΓª╥┐↕§
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What about 'said', as in, "It was often said that he said it aloud"?
No, was said is the passive formation in English.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Maybe this comes close?
I bleed to know he is ill.
He bleeds the patient to cure his illness.
Both are active forms , but in the first sentence the subject is in a state of passive 'bleeding'.
In the second sentence the subject is a state of action.
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You know, Bran, I've been wondering whether you mean transitive and intransitive verbs, as in your "bleed" example?
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Yes Anna, I saw it too when I looked after I'd posted. First sentence
gives the transitive meaning and the second the intransitive.
English is such an efficient and logic language. Dutch is full of exceptions.
I'm still stuck with those dutch 'klinkens' because they are both intransitive unless....... no, I'll go nag a dutch neerlandica-friend about this.
I think I'll call it a day. Must have been all this glitter the week started with. Blinding! Blinging? Thanks!
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Well, it's kind of complicated, but basically voice (active, middle, passive, reflexive, pseudo-reflexive, etc.) and valency (transitive, intransitive, ditransitive, ambitranstive, etc.) are related. In nominative-accusative languages, the passive form is used to make the patient of an action into the grammatical subject of a transitive verb. (In ergative languages, there is a related form called the antipassive.) Intransitive verbs don't have passive forms. Ambitransitive verbs are those which can be used as either a transitive or intransitive verb without changing form: e.g., read, break, understand. In Romance languages, ambitransitive verbs don't tend to exist. Rather, they are replaced with pseudo-reflexive verb forms, e.g., Spanish romperse 'to break', olivdarse 'to forget', hacerse 'to become, be made', etc. In English, "I broke a bone", and, "I forgot where I parked my car", though I am the grammatical subject, we tend not to think of me as the agent. I am not actively doing these things. The Spanish forms capture this in a kind of reflexive verb form: "the bone broke itself to me", "my car forgot itself to me". Real reflexives, like "I wash myself" are different in that I am both the subject/agent and object/patient. There are also some intransitive verbs called unergative verbs which are intransitive, yet in some languages, such as Dutch, they can be passivized: "Er wordt door Jan getelefoneerd" meaning "A telephone call by Jan has been received". The flip side of these verbs are unaccusative verbs, i.e., intransitives where the grammatical subject is not perceived as the agent, e.g., English die, fall, arrive, etc. In some Germanic and Romance languages, the perfect tenses of these verbs use a form of to be with the past (passive) participle, while unergative verbs use forms of to have: e.g., "Jan heeft getelefoneerd" ("Jan has telephoned"), "Klaas is gearriveerd" ("Klaas has arrived"), but "er wordt door Jan getelefoneerd" ("there is by Jan telephoned"), *"er wordt door Klaas gearriveerd" ("there is by Klaas arrived"). You can find many of these terms at the Lexicon of Linguistics (at the University of Utrecht) or in Wikipedia.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Yes!!!!! That is what I meant: ambitransitive verbs! And read, break , understand are perfectly fitting the idea. I love your eleborate explanations and the comparisons with the other languages. Specially the spanish solution: Blame it on the the bone and blame on the the car! And the dutch part is fine but for a little detail. Basically:"A telephone call by Jan has been received" would be translated as: "Er is een telefoontje van Jan ontvangen (or binnengekomen) " "Er wordt door Jan getelefoneerd" would be translated as: "Jan is making a telephone call" This dutch sentence tells no more than that Jan is in the act of making that call. The second exemples you give about dutch are very accurately correct. I reall love this kind of stuff. This amateur (not fanatic)is very grateful for this expert's, yes, complicated but very interesting explanations
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Basically:"A telephone call by Jan has been received" would be translated as: "Er is een telefoontje van Jan ontvangen (or binnengekomen)" "Er wordt door Jan getelefoneerd" would be translated as: "Jan is making a telephone call" This dutch sentence tells no more than that Jan is in the act of making that call.
Thanks for the feedback and the correction. And welcome aboard, BranShea. (Perhaps, AnnaStrophic would add some Portuguese examples of pseudo-reflexives.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Quote:
You know, Bran, I've been wondering whether you mean transitive and intransitive verbs, as in your "bleed" example?
Thanks to both your efforts I came to some new understanding this week. And I want to let you know that Portuguese is my favourite language for sound and tone. (Swedish comes next).
Even though I understand far less than half of it I love to hear it.
Cheers from the rainy North Sea coast!
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