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Do you really think that your IQ can be derived from whether or not you think dimdangs are werewozzles or what color hat the girl's sister nephew is wearing or what color the next marble is going to be?
I'm starting to think IQ is nothing more than a myth created by so-called intellectuals that couldn't find the right way to perform auto-fellatio.
All of that aside, anyone know any good IQ tests (online that I don't have to pay for, but that are close to the real thing and not from "quizilla")?
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IQ tests only test knowledge of the world in which you live. Ex: A man from africa could be the smartest man in the world and come to American and fail horribly just because he doesnt know: one, our langauge; two, our culture; three, and our history. The rules are you have to live in the country of where the IQ tests are meant for and follow what everyone else does. It is a limited test, we are not all equal enough for a perfect IQ test. Point being, the day we are all mushed together enough is the day I kill myself. Because mutualism is the key to survival if anything.
~Ari
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Well, I live in Miami in South Florida. My parents are Cuban immigrants, though I was born here. I'm "second generation," so I'm Americanized to a degree, but Miami is nothing like the rest of the US.
So that might effect my results.
A simple example, I remember I didn't know what an oar was up until a few years ago, because I've always known of it as a paddle.
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Quote:
I remember I didn't know what an oar was up until a few years ago, because I've always known of it as a paddle.
Where I come from an oar and a paddle are two different things. But always remember: YMMV.
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I once read that IQ tests were first developed in order to create a merit-based system of admissions to higher education than the patrician one that prevailed at the time. That is, they were not originally designed with the intention of creating new elite, but of diminishing an old.
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People confuse all sorts of "standardized tests" with real IQ tests. Lots of people claim to know their IQ's but very few have taken a real, full and complete IQ test.
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It's a circular argument as well. IQ tests measure intelligence, intelligence is defined as how you measure on IQ tests.
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there are some I.Q test (a 4 hour battery) that are less cultural based.
just a month ago, the NYTimes science section had some samples from test, ("Pick the next in the series" or "pick the one that doesn't belong" type questions) that were used to tested people in US (of all levels) and tested people in (i forget, zambia springs to mind, but its a WAG) and by and large successful people in US (employed, completed schooling--either HS or unversity) and successful people with out schooling in the african country, (tribal leaders, sucessful hunters) scored about the same.
less successful people (employees of fast food places, or wal mart type stores, and less successful people with out education (the guys working in/on plantation at a level of virtual slavery in the african country) also faired about the same.
does a high IQ always equal success? or does hard work and success expose you to new ways of thinking? its hard to tell, but people who never studies geometry (in US or else where)and who had ( hadn't) mastered consepts of shapes/angles/progressions, faired about the same in their personal lives (as they did on the test!)
people who had mastered the concepts (either by formal education, or by the ability to think) tended to do better economically.
you don't need to study geometry to understand acute or obtuse angles (and that they are different) but if when you see them, you understantd the concept (and can pick out which angle is like the others, (or not like the others) it seems likely you are 'smarter' and better able to think.
(and the ability to think helps you get employed --or to be more successful hunting prey.. (which is just an other way to measure success!)
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My info is probably out of date (university was mumblemumble years ago) but I can remember that some of the problems identified with IQ tests were the culturally loaded language and the lack of measurement of other success related factors such as social skills and perserverance.
Hey, maybe they should scrap the tests and use just the selected items from the NYT piece that do seem predictive.
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Now really, Zed and of troy, surely you two bright folk know that diffrent Cultures, like diffrent individuals, have different IQ's. Lucky are the people born in those Cultures that have the highest IQ's. And you two are very lucky. Right inselpeter?
Last edited by themilum; 04/11/06 12:55 AM.
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milo, i think every culture has great thinkers, and thinking is not culturally connected.
some people can think in 3d (and they can look at a image of a 3d thing, and rotate it in their head, and know what it looks like turned to left (or right, or upside down)
some people are quickly able to see patterns (humans excell at seeing patterns!) and are able to replicate them.
as a child, i was able to memorize passages with out understanding the words, or meaning of the passage.
these skills/gifts/what ever you call them, are signs of intelegence.
they are not culturally dependent.
there are folks (and we have mostly likely somewher in our life seen evidence of this) who have trouble making a pattern as simple as a checkerboard (--and their attempts to lay a set of floor tiles in a checkboard pattern are flawed.) others, can see and replicate complex patterns or even create new patterns, with ease.
these abilities can be one way to measure inteligence.
(one of the test i was required to perform in a 4 hour IQ test involved seeing (but then having the image removed) and being asked to recreate the same image (they became increasing complex)--all created with wooden tile of squared, diamonds, triangles and rectangles.
those who can't lay a checkerboard tile floor, would 'fail this test' --and people from other cultures, could 'pass' and they wouldn't need to know anything about our culture, or we about their culture to have this happen.
the word/culture values test (that pass for IQ test) are not true measure of inteligence, but measures of how well adjusted a person to the values the test is measuring.
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If you are looking for a listing of IQ tests that are free, here is a site that lists a lot of different types. Listing of Free IQ Tests.
Rev. Alimae
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> tiles in a checkboard pattern
Farbeit from a maverick to chasen® others' spelling but shouldn't that be floored? :]
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Thanks, Alimae--good to see you! You doin' okay? And, mav--I notice you only do any chasen when there's a female involved! 
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I got a 120 in the first IQ test link.
~Ari
I'm not that smart, but I might be right.
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135. I did worst on the fact based questions (13 & 15 e.g).
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Math is somewhat difficult to me, luckily it wasn't to far up there with math. The names of things or persons I didnt do good on. The rest I messed up were mixed by either a typo in the numbers, and just plain wrong. I understand why I missed some of them and I got mad at myself because I knew I could of did it if I were to take more time into the questions.
~Ari
I'm not that smart, but I might be right.
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Quote:
milo, i think every culture has great thinkers, and thinking is not culturally connected.
some people can think in 3d (and they can look at a image of a 3d thing, and rotate it in their head, and know what it looks like turned to left (or right, or upside down)
some people are quickly able to see patterns (humans excell at seeing patterns!) and are able to replicate them.
as a child, i was able to memorize passages with out understanding the words, or meaning of the passage.
these skills/gifts/what ever you call them, are signs of intelegence.
they are not culturally dependent.
there are folks (and we have mostly likely somewher in our life seen evidence of this) who have trouble making a pattern as simple as a checkerboard (--and their attempts to lay a set of floor tiles in a checkboard pattern are flawed.) others, can see and replicate complex patterns or even create new patterns, with ease.
these abilities can be one way to measure inteligence.
(one of the test i was required to perform in a 4 hour IQ test involved seeing (but then having the image removed) and being asked to recreate the same image (they became increasing complex)--all created with wooden tile of squared, diamonds, triangles and rectangles.
those who can't lay a checkerboard tile floor, would 'fail this test' --and people from other cultures, could 'pass' and they wouldn't need to know anything about our culture, or we about their culture to have this happen.
the word/culture values test (that pass for IQ test) are not true measure of inteligence, but measures of how well adjusted a person to the values the test is measuring.
the values the test is measuring.
Well now, of troy, measurements of value must be based on a desired quality or condition or function or something.
It follows that some cognitive skills might be of value in some Cultures and detrimental in others.
So are we trans-culturists to arbitrarily choose which to score high?
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I have been so busy of late it has been insane almost to the point of being indecorous. But then again, I am a reverend so what can I truly expect?
Anyway, thank you for asking M'Lady.
Rev. Alimae
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milo, country boy that you are, perhaps you'll enjoy this:
some years ago, in an article in Natural History (a magazine produced by the Am. Mus of Natural History (here in NY)this story was related.
a curator and a naturalist were walking down Amsterdam ave. (a busy street, with several sidewalk cafes, many high rise buildings, lots of traffic (including city buses)--a typical urban environment)
at one point the naturalist stopped, and said "listen--a cricket" the curator, stopped, but he couldn't hear anything.
the natualist, nodded, and said "no, you wouldn't.." he then put his hand in his pocket, and dropped some change on the sidewalk.
several people stopped, and looked about..
the naturalist bent over an picked up the coins.. (someone helpfully pointed out one coin had rolled, and indicated where it came to rest.)
the naturalist asked the curator, "so what coins did i drop?"
with out hesitation, the curator, said, "well, at least on quarter, a couple of dimes and pennies."
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Here, in NYC humans have learned there are certain noises to pay attention to, and certain noises that can be ignored.
crickets can be (and are ignored) but money falling on concrete, (a noise about as loud as cricket's mating call) is an important noise. we NYer's can differentciate, (well almost all of us can!), the noise made by a quarter, and the one made by a penny. (and almost every other coin)
the naturalist, visiting NY (on a break from feild study, still had 'country ears' and heard country sounds, sounds that were import to his work in the field.
NYer's hear city noises.
both the curator and the naturalist could hear (and classify) faint noises in their environments.
Its not that one had better hearing, but rather, each had trained their ears to hear different thing.
if i had to hunt for my food (meat) i would eat very little of it. i would (i think) learn to be more aware of noises and tells in the woods if i lived there, and needed to learn to hear them, (to survive, or even just to live well.)
You might find a city like NY a cacaphony at first, but, if you lived here, you too, would soon be able to hear a penny drop (and most definately hear a quarter drop!) even with all the louder background noise.
culture (and location) tunes are ears.. and depending on the culture we live, we will learn to respond to different cues. different noises will have different values.
Is it better to be able to hear a cricket? or the clink of quarter hitting concrete? depends on where you live.
--humans are uniquely able to alter there perceptions and to value different thing in different environments.
being able to hear and catogorize the important noises in the environment we live in, is important to our sucess, (personally and as a species)
while it might not be import to most humans to be able to hear a cricket, to a scientist involved in studying an enviorment, it could be. You might very well hear things in your environment that i would miss. I most likely hear things that you would miss (here in NY).
there are some IQ test that are culturally (environmentally) biased. but being able to hear and distingish the important sound in the enviroment we live in is a measure of intellect.
i might not hear (or distingish) country sounds as well as you do, but i generally don't need to.
well developed IQ test recognize that there are different inteligences, (and different ways to measure them).
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Wonderful point, of troy. You have the most delightful way of making my point, but one of which that is probably antithetical to the revelation that I hoped my point would bring home to you. Is that clear? Anyway, understand this meaning and understand it well: A Culture is not an abstraction, a Culture is as concrete as DNA.
There is no dalliance in nature, the Culture's the thing! Get it? If not, see my post about blackbirds in "Animal safari".
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Helen, I'm going to take issue with a couple of your points. humans are uniquely able to alter there perceptions and to value different thing in different environments. I don't agree with the "unique" part: our cat's behavior changed drastically when we got our current dog, who seems to consider it her goal in life to personally exterminate all other fur-bearing creatures, and those with feathers if she can. (We came home to a dead chipmunk yesterday, WAIL!) The cat's environment had suddenly become deadly, and she responded by 1.) severely curtailing her excursions into certain parts of the house; 2.) being on high alert when she did venture out of her safe zone, and 3.) by learning to listen for when the dog goes outside--within seconds, usually, she's nudging around my ankles. She has changed again in recent months; we had suce a warm winter (  ) that the dog spent most days outside; and the cat has responded by roaming all over the house. Second: being able to hear and distingish the important sound in the enviroment we live in is a measure of intellect. I can't put my finger on why, but this just doesn't sound right. To me this would come more under survival skills than intellect.
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Quote:
...our current dog, who seems to consider it her goal in life to personally exterminate all other fur-bearing creatures, and those with feathers if she can.
It sounds as if the situation could quickly become hopeless.
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our cat's behavior changed drastically when we got our current dog
But... this may have always been part of your cat's behavior pattern but there was no stimulus to activate it. E.g., they grow white asparagus by keeping it out of the light - but if it's exposed to light, it "learns" how to turn green! Therefore, I posit that asparagus is as smart people! 
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...Therefore, I posit that asparagus is as smart people!
Oh oh  I am going to run away and become an asparagus! I want to be able to change my color because I am "smrt" 2!
Rev. Alimae
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[green]I am going to run away and become an asparagus! [/green]
well remember, kermit the frog says, "it's not easy being green"..
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"pick the one that doesn't belong" type questionsI would probably ace that one! I take those kinds of tests all the time in school.  There have been at least several times where I got at least a 'C' or a 'B' on a subject I had no idea of, just by picking the one that don't belong, and what might be most likely. Just as long as it's multiple choice. (If it's essay I just keep writing indefinitely until I run out of ideas and hope I hit the answer somewhere.) Quote:
some people are quickly able to see patterns (humans excell at seeing patterns!) and are able to replicate them.
as a child, i was able to memorize passages with out understanding the words, or meaning of the passage.
these skills/gifts/what ever you call them, are signs of intelegence.
they are not culturally dependent.
there are folks (and we have mostly likely somewher in our life seen evidence of this) who have trouble making a pattern as simple as a checkerboard (--and their attempts to lay a set of floor tiles in a checkboard pattern are flawed.) others, can see and replicate complex patterns or even create new patterns, with ease.
these abilities can be one way to measure inteligence.
(one of the test i was required to perform in a 4 hour IQ test involved seeing (but then having the image removed) and being asked to recreate the same image (they became increasing complex)--all created with wooden tile of squared, diamonds, triangles and rectangles.
those who can't lay a checkerboard tile floor, would 'fail this test' --and people from other cultures, could 'pass' and they wouldn't need to know anything about our culture, or we about their culture to have this happen.
Actually I think that's more of a short-term memory quiz (or photographic memory for that matter)...
Last edited by mechanesthesia; 04/13/06 04:36 AM.
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Post deleted by inselpeter
Last edited by inselpeter; 04/14/06 01:33 AM.
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A doctor I work with (ESL) speaks functional English but is working on the nuances. His question of yesterday which I hereby present for discussion: What is the difference in meaning and usage of "smart", "clever" and "intelligent"?
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I’d use these three in the following way:
Clever I’d use to describe somebody who can think in innovative ways, usually to solve some sort of problem. A person who is uneducated or of low education can be as clever as a person of high education.
Intelligent I use to describe somebody who is highly educated or knows a lot of things.
Smart I’d use for somebody who knows a lot of things too, but knows how to use this knowledge to his advantage.
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I wouldn't necessarily say that intelligent means educated. (And vice versa.) Intelligence to me is a more general umbrella term for a variety of qualities such as cleverness, insight, education, oranization of thought, etc. An uneducated person could certainly be intelligent, such as the Indian mathematician Ramanujan.
"Clever" to me implies a creativity of thought, especially related to problem solving. It seems to connote some idea that relates to action, such as developing a more economical way to perform a task that previously was more complex and time consuming. A clever new way to clean the windows. It wouldn't be completely out of bounds to talk about "developing a clever new way to think about the poems of Emily Dickinson" but it would sound better to me to speak of "developing an insightful new approach to understanding the poems of...."
Crafty is a bit like clever but it implies a certain deviousness. A clever accountant gets a good tax return for you without fear of breaking the law; a crafty one might just be bending the law a little bit.
"Smart" to me seems to be pretty much synonymous with "intelligent." The only difference is the latter would dominate at the top end of the scale in terms of gravitas or brilliance. For example, which would you use to describe Albert Einstein or some other Nobel Prize winner, "very smart" or "highly intelligent"? As another example, if you were a high school teacher and you had two students, both of whom made straight As in all subjects, but only one of whom exhibited surprising creativity, originality and insight on a regular basis. I'd say the latter is highly intelligent or brilliant, whereas the other would be smart or very smart.
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An uneducated person could certainly be intelligent, such as the Indian mathematician Ramanujan.
Totally.
My sister gets straight A's, she has all AP classes, but she throws her hands up at the slightest indication of a "real-life" problem. I'm always having to help her out of simple things like applying for financial aid and finding out information about her college... And I myself didn't have all AP or all straight A's, but I know how to easily deal with these kinds of situations all the time. (I find it kind of ironic...)
Last edited by mechanesthesia; 04/14/06 10:19 PM.
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but I know how to easily deal with these kinds of situations all the time.
Like how to more gracefully accept an offered apology, perhaps?
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crickets can be (and are ignored) You haven't heard the ring tone on my cellphone.  A Culture is not an abstraction, a Culture is as concrete as DNA. Then why don't we use the terms DNA and culture interchangably?  An abstraction is exactly what 'culture' is. I consider it more of a distraction, but... I'll refrain for the moment. There are so many cultures based upon so many different amounts of different defining attributes... it can't get any more abstract... Yet, this is how I understand it, and as *we all know, a culture of one is as valuable as a culture of a million.
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I have some cultures in my refrigerator. Wanna try some?
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Pulp Culture -- Thomas Dolby So check beneath your fingernails In between your toes Right between your earlobes darling That's where culture grows more here
formerly known as etaoin...
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A Simple Desultory Philippic (Or How I Was Robert McNamara'd Into Submission)
I been Phil Spectored, resurrected
I been Lou Adlered, Barry Sadlered
Well, I paid all the dues I want to pay
And I learned the truth from Lenny Bruce
And all my wealth want buy me health
So I smoke a pint of tea a day
I knew a man his brain so small
He couldnt think of nothin' at all
He's not the same as you and me
It doesnt take poetry
He's so unhip
When you say Dylan
He thinks you're talkin' about Dylan Thomas
Whoever he was
The man ain't got no culture
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Quote:
I have some cultures in my refrigerator. Wanna try some?
Same mold, same mold (thanks Grimm!)
TEd
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Quote:
I have some cultures in my refrigerator. Wanna try some?
And I don't think that agars well!
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TEd's wife, peg sneaking on for a sec, before she closes out the window he left on:
My working definition of intelligence is: degree of problem solving ability.
Have fun folks!
PEg
TEd
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Allo PEg, nice of you to drop in.
Your definition of intelligent is what I'd consider as clever. How would you define smart and clever?
Funny, eh, the English language. You can have ten people say the same thing and mean something slightly different in each case.
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I'd say that smart was: quick to comprehend, with an implication of sassiness or newness to it. I'd define clever as witty, with overtones of foxiness and an implication that rule bending might be allowable. All those words have to do with how much good stuff there is in the Central Processing Unit, but some have more to do with RAM than mother board, and others more to do with software . . . It's nice to be able to pop in, thanks, bel! You're right about English. Some of us treat it as Humpty Dumpty does in Alice. Lack of shared references can keep two people who share the same language from communicating well, can't it?
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Hey, Peg, good to meet you (again)!
Now, hwa?
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newbie
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Hmm.. I wonder if the whole culture debate is the reason that the SAT was recently changed.
[insert signature here]
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What is the next number in this series:
1, 2, 9, 262144, ____
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What is the next number in this series: Is there one that makes some sort of logical sense?
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Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
What is the next number in this series:
1, 2, 9, 262144, ____
I don't know how the 1 was derived, perhaps by defining it, but the second number is 2 to the power of the number preceding it; the third number is 3 to the power of the number preceding it; the fourth number is 4 to the power of the number preceding it; so the fifth number would be 5 to the power of the number preceding it. Deriving the actual number is trivial, so I will leave that up to the reader. I can give you a big hint, though. It ends in 25.
TEd
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Electronic hard wired color displays are designated as "pallettes". Pallette 1 lets us see 114 color shades. Pallette 2 lets us see 543 color shades. Pallette 9 lets us see 262,144 different shades of colors, the most available. So the answer to the so called Faldage Sequence is " 0" ( as in "none") because there are no further shady mechanisms in the electronic marketplace today. 1,(114) 2,(543) 9, (262,144) 0 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The closest I've come up with is 6.206e183230
The recursion is, as TEd sussed, N^=N to the (N-1)^. I haven't decided how to define the base but it doesn't quite matter. It could be 0^=0, 0^=1 or 1^=1. I kinda like the first version just because it seems the elegantest.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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You have artistic license when it comes to defining the first numbers in a sequence. Sometimes by playing around with them you get cool results. One of the interesting things about the Fibonacci sequence is that the ratios of successive numbers such 8/5, 13/8, 21/13, etc, approach the famous irrational number known as Phi , associated with the Golden Ratio. But what's even more interesting, is that no matter how you define the first two numbers in the Fibonacci sequence -- suppose your sequence begins 7, 8, 15, 23, 38... -- the ratios of consecutive numbers will still converge on this value 1.61803399. You can even begin with 0 and 7, ensuring a Fibonacci-esque sequence whose members are all multiples of seven, and the ratios of successive numbers in the list will converge to Phi.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I played around with a multiplicative Fibonacci series once. pretty neat. I have no idea whether it approached Phi or not. I guess I took artistic license to get it started: 1 1 2 2 4 8 32 256 8192 2,097,152 17,179,869,184 36,028,797,019,000,000 618,970,019,640,000,000,000,000,000
formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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ok, how does this series relate to mine above?
1
1
1
3
4
6
10
formerly known as etaoin...
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Ack!!! Numbers!!! [[runs away freaking out]] Numbers bad! Numbers make my head hurt!  <---Is 75% dyslexic.
Rev. Alimae
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
75% dyslexic.
And the other 35% is mathephobic.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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That leaves 15%. What's my bid?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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So, 75, 35, and 15 are not numbers? What are they chopped digits?
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but here are some random comments. I don't have any particular knowledge of it, but of course that doesn't prevent me from having and expressing strong opinions.
1. I believe that intelligence exists. I do not know that IQ actually measures real intelligence. I do think it is a proxy, but only within a very narrow range - what I would call trivial intelligence. Often we take other tests which are proxies of a proxy, so to speak - the GRE, SAT, etc.
2. There are usually several components - logic, pattern detection/matching, and verbal. Often the components are mixed. Often there are clear cultural components to the test and almost always there are subtle cultural biases. That doesn't mean the tests are useless or that they "don't mean anything."
3. I don't think that all cultures are equal or even equivalent - with regard to promoting intelligence or probably much of anything else. That doesn't mean that I don't think there intelligent - even brilliant - people in every culture. But I do think that those cultures which value it (ACTUALLY value it, as opposed to just saying that they value it) will promote it.
4. Intelligence of nearly any variety isn't always a good thing for the individual.
5. I'm vaguely familiar with Howard Gardner's ideas on multiple intelligences. This seems a good start to me in that it considers intelligence to be a vector rather than a scalar. It's a good start, but I suspect the idea could be expanded.
6. Most people consider "wisdom" very roughly to be how well one can translate intelligence into action. I'll settle for this definition; however, most people consider wisdom to be some sort of higher order function than intelligence, while I just consider it to be another axis of the intelligence vector.
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