|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 427
addict
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 427 |
Quote:
Speaking of which, how did most of these words came to be derived from both languages? Was there a council for "formation of sophisticated new English words through Latin and French"?
I'm not sure whether this is what you are asking, but in any case French is a Romance language, like Spanish, Portuguese and Italian. All of these developed out of Latin, so that's the connection: Latin gave us French, which was in turn foisted on the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, from where it was taken over to the US, Canada etc...
If this was not the question, freely ignore... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Logwood, I haven't looked at English as a global language
in a coon's age, but it's quite possible you'll find some answers there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 270
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 270 |
Very interesting post, zmjezhd. Here's my bit of knowledge: Tiberians are those who came from Tiberias, which is a city is Israel. Sephardic are those of Spanish or North African descent. Ashkenazim are those who came from middle or northern Europe. Yemenite... well, are those who came from Yemen. I do in fact fall in that category! and yes, there are probably more, but I'm ignorant of those. Hola Marianna! I did a little research before posting this actually, and have became aware of the Romance Languages, but I'm still perplexed about one thing: For instance, take Hebrew, and you'll find that Eliezer Ben Yehuda is considered the founder of modern Hebrew (basing most of the words on Biblical Hebrew AKA Aramaic). So, in English, were all these words that have French/Latin origin assembled by someone/s? or otherwise; how did they came to be? Edit; Jackie, I lost you at "coon's age" 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
My understanding is that when the takeover of 1066 happened the winners of the war moved in and brought their language with them. Since they had all the money and power they got to keep speaking their own language and the locals were the ones who had to adapt. Peasants had pigs, cows, and houses (well hovels really), and continued to use their own (?Saxon) words for these simple things. Many of these words are related to German who had been the previous invaders. Or even Danish (Viking) e.g. church from kirk. The Norman/French nobility had porc, jambon (ham) and mansions and these words eventually filtered down.
This is one reason that English grammer is difficult to learn. It is a mish mash of French and German rules. pretty - prettier - prettiest vs beautiful -more beautiful - most beautiful with the fancier words usually following the French pattern.
Does this help?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
I do in fact fall in that category!
The you still make a difference between 'alef and `ayin (which many European Israelis don't, yes? Also, do you distinguish between tav and tav with dagesh?
For instance, take Hebrew, and you'll find that Eliezer Ben Yehuda is considered the founder of modern Hebrew (basing most of the words on Biblical Hebrew AKA Aramaic).
So, in English, were all these words that have French/Latin origin assembled by someone/s? or otherwise; how did they came to be?
Yes, Eliezer ben Yehuda is the father of Hebrew revival, but not all of his (or those of the Academy of the Hebrew Language) are those which Modern Israelis use in everyday conversation. (Cf. the Academy in France which tries to regulate usage in French.) I just finished a fascinating monograph of Eliezer b. Yehuda called The Revival of a Classical Language, and is with any language, the story is more complicated than simple. Ben Yehuda tried to disseminate his neologisms mainly through his newspaper, haTsevi. Whenever possible he tried to take the roots for his neologisms from Rabbinical (Talmudic) Hebrew (or Aramaic) or from spoken Arabic (rephonologized).
Some more of Zuckermann's examples of loans: pancher (pancherim) 'puncture', instead of neker. Silvim (or silbim, silibim) 'head-lights' (from sealed-beam head-lamps. Singular silv. (Here the -eam part of English beam in the loan was re-analysed as the -im Hebrew masculine plural.) I'm still reading the book. It's dense and slow-reading, but fascinating.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 270
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 270 |
I have to get that book!  Well, since Hebrew is embedded in me, differentiating between alef and ayin comes to me naturally. Tav (you mean taf?) with dagesh is only used in abbreviations as far as I know. Like for "Ma zot omeret?" ("what does it mean?"), as "Ma zt'omeret?" maybe I misunderstand you though? I ran the book through Amazon and noticed the title appears in Hebrew, while the smaller prints appear in English. I suspect the Hebraic letters are just decorative and the book itself is written in English. Unfortunately it costs 95$! (gadzooks) dense must be an understatement! Very interesting what you post nevertheless. Zed, thanks, but I'll be specific about my perplexity.  I understand how did the words became commingled with English, but I'm curious about the formation of the words. Take a word like "gullet", which is from Middle English golet, from Old French goulet, from goule, throat, from Latin gula. Now, who decided that from all of these words "gullet" should be formed?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
I am far from a linguist of any kind, Logwood, but my sense is that no one "decided" the final form of any of the words. It was more an evolution of usage. No one person or several sat on high and ruled Yea or Nay.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Yes, Logwood. It was expensive. Many academic books are. I found it online for slightly cheaper (on www.abebooks.com), around US$80, which isn't that much cheaper, but I feel it's worth it. As for taf (yes, the final letter in the Hebrew alphabet), I meant the distinction between taf at the beginning of a word, like in torah (with dagesh), and at the end of one, like in bath 'daughter' (without dagesh). In Sephardic they are both pronounced /t/, but in Ashkenazic the first one is pronounced /t/, but the second one is /s/. Now, who decided that from all of these words Nobody. Most language change is unpremeditated.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 270
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 270 |
I thought about that at length (and maybe it's my skeptic nature) but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that most of the words of a modern language were modernized (through a number of languages) simply via evolution without anyone (singular or plural) specific to direct it. I take modern Hebrew as my fundamental reasoning, wherein most of the words formation was chairmaned. But nevertheless, if there is no other explanation I take your words for it. I was just expecting more convincing arguments. zmjezhd, I don't know the pronunciation distinction then. I'm not particularly erudite in Hebrew for a sabra (native-born Israeli). As you might tell, all my focus went towards English. PS. it sounds the book was a good deal, I'll try to look it up in a second hand store.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
I take modern Hebrew as my fundamental reasoning, wherein most of the words formation was chairmaned.
But, Logwood, Israeli Hebrew is a special case amongst languages. It stopped being spoken by native speakers (i.e., people who learn their first language from their mothers) more than two thousand years ago. For about two thousand years it was used as a learned and liturgical language, somewhat like Latin. When, towards the end of the 19th century, it started to be revived as a national language for Jews in diaspora coming to live in what is today Israel, it was discovered by people such as Eliezer ben Yehuda and Mendele Mokher Sfarim and others that it lacked an adequate vocabulary to discuss everyday, mundane, and modern things. As a result, Ben Yehuda and others started to coin words and popularize them in newspapers and books (novels and dictionaries). Almost all the other languages of Europe have a history of being used continuously over an historical period stretching from at least the Middle Ages until today. These languages changed, e.g., Latin and Italian are quite different but obviously related. Same with Spanish, French, and Romanian. They are related to one another through their one ancestor Latin. If you look at the vocabularies of the Romance languages, you will see many loanwords. The word for white in Latin is either albus or candidus (depending on whether it is shiny or matte). Hardly any of the daughter languages use either of those words for the common adjective 'white': e.g., Spanish blanco, Italian bianco, and French blanc all come from a Germanic loanword blank 'white'. When two languages come into contact with one another, borrowing tends to occur. Uriel Weinreich wrote a marvelous little book on this called Languages in Contact. (You can probably find it used online.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,373
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
155
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
