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The trailers for a drama set in what appears to be one of the penal colonies in Australia are playing continuously on one of the international TV channels here. The voiceover starts "At a time when freedom was deprived ....".
Now, certainly one can be deprived of freedom, but what can freedom be deprived of? Or is this idiomatic in the Southern reaches of the English language?
Bingley
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If the sentence continues somewhat like this, "At a time when freedom was deprived, inmates something-something...", I don't have a problem with it, though it would be better to say when their freedom was deprived.
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Pooh-Bah
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The problem is easily solved; simply bind the term in quotation marks: when "freedom" was deprived (of meaning).
edited for intelligibility
Last edited by inselpeter; 10/20/05 02:04 AM.
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Carpal Tunnel
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The key kere is that it was Aussie. In regler English they'd a been saying, "At a time when freedom was depraved."
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It goes something like "At a time when freedom was deprived and following orders was the only thing to do, one woman blah-blah-blah"
Bingley
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Pooh-Bah
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Well, it's just plain stupid, isn't it?
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enthusiast
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It is wrong to attribute this solecism to Australian English.
As someone who has worked in television production (and, I might add, is of antipodean extraction on the spindle side) I can tell you a general truth -- proven by long and bitter experience -- about the kind of person who writes the commercial blurbs in that industry, Australian, American or English: a litterateur he is not.
Turn on your television, any television, and listen to your commercials, reality television programs, talk shows and infomercials with the same critical ear. That will suffice to silence all criticism.
But, let it be said in passing, this slight is typical of the cultural cringe accompanying colonial modernism. And supposing any of you guilty of it are American, you should remember that European intellectuals cringed the same cringe at your cultural heritage upon immigrating to the New World to escape the Nazi’s during World War Two.
The recently arrived French Surrealists, for example, contemned the Abstract Expressionists and action painting of the so-called "New York School" ; Continental writers were similarly hostile to the American literary developments of the 1950s, as is evident from letters, journals, and numerous documented encounters.
If the "vulgar yanks" had let that extinguish their muse, there'd be no Pollock, no Ginsberg, Burroughs or Kerouac.
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old hand
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old hand
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The fact that this, let's say, unusual construction has generated such interest from various corners suggests to me that we may be facing an instance of linguistic speciation, in the sense of the punctuated equilibrium hypothesis  . Transition to transitive use of verbs has been ongoing across the board (not ours, maybe).
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enthusiast
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wsieber, what the Janey Mack is a punctuated equilibrium hypothesis?
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Pooh-Bah
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Quote:
It is wrong to attribute this solecism to Australian English.
As someone who has worked in television production (and, I might add, is of antipodean extraction on the spindle side) I can tell you a general truth -- proven by long and bitter experience -- about the kind of person who writes the commercial blurbs in that industry, Australian, American or English: a litterateur he is not.
Turn on your television, any television, and listen to your commercials, reality television programs, talk shows and infomercials with the same critical ear. That will suffice to silence all criticism.
But, let it be said in passing, this slight is typical of the cultural cringe accompanying colonial modernism. And supposing any of you guilty of it are American, you should remember that European intellectuals cringed the same cringe at your cultural heritage upon immigrating to the New World to escape the Nazi’s during World War Two.
The recently arrived French Surrealists, for example, contemned the Abstract Expressionists and action painting of the so-called "New York School" ; Continental writers were similarly hostile to the American literary developments of the 1950s, as is evident from letters, journals, and numerous documented encounters.
If the "vulgar yanks" had let that extinguish their muse, there'd be no Pollock, no Ginsberg, Burroughs or Kerouac.
Well, it's just plain stupid, isn't it?
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Carpal Tunnel
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HL:
I agree. The people who write ad copy are linguistical and grammatical imbeciles. There is one ad I see often on CNN that typifies this: Up until recently, Sarah Smith was limited by her mobility...."
ARGH! I have considered calling the 1-800 number and trying to find someone who would reveal the name of the copy-writer so I could find him or her and remove all fingers to prevent further keyboard use, but previous exercises in that direction have led only to an increase in blood pressure.
TEd
Last edited by TEd Remington; 10/21/05 11:47 AM.
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Pooh-Bah
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>>limited by her mobility<<
lol
Though some ad copy is brillian; can't think of an e.g. right now, though.
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Carpal Tunnel
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TEd, does this mean you're limited by your blood pressure? 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
The trailers for a drama set in what appears to be one of the penal colonies in Australia are playing continuously on one of the international TV channels here. The voiceover starts "At a time when freedom was deprived ....".
Now, certainly one can be deprived of freedom, but what can freedom be deprived of? Or is this idiomatic in the Southern reaches of the English language?
I would suggest it is just another case of semantic shift. Consider the structure <ADV deprived>, as in emotionally deprived, extend this to a phrase in which a noun is being used adverbially, e.g., sleep deprived, and then treat the adverbial noun as the object of the deprivation. One small step for language; one giant leap for linguistics.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
TEd, does this mean you're limited by your blood pressure?
Hopefully he'll get over it.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Quote:
I would suggest it is just another case of semantic shift. Consider the structure <ADV deprived>, as in emotionally deprived, extend this to a phrase in which a noun is being used adverbially, e.g., sleep deprived, and then treat the adverbial noun as the object of the deprivation. One small step for language; one giant leap for linguistics.
But it's a passive contruction. What do you do with the 'was?'
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
I would suggest it is just another case of semantic shift. Consider the structure <ADV deprived>, as in emotionally deprived, extend this to a phrase in which a noun is being used adverbially, e.g., sleep deprived, and then treat the adverbial noun as the object of the deprivation. One small step for language; one giant leap for linguistics.
But, my dear Fong, sleep deprived is not the way most people would use it. They would hyphenate, thusly, I am sleep-deprived. This is NOT using sleep as the subject of the verb deprive. Sleep-deprived is an adjective.
I am always surprised when I see the lengths to which descriptivists will go to say that something that is so plainly wrong might possibly be correct. I will grant you that the sentence that begins "At a time when freedom was deprived. . .." can be successfully interpreted, but when a reader has to stop to figure out what the author meant, then there has been a breakdown in effective communication.
I just looked at the first dozen or so on-line dictionaries that came up in onelook.com, and every one of those with a sample sentence used the word of to connect the verb deprive with the thing that was taken away. And the last one (the thirteenth) I looked at provided this:
To dispossess; to bereave; to divest; to hinder from possessing; to debar; to shut out from; -- with a remoter object , usually preceded by of. Online Plain Text English Dictionary
TEd
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
This is NOT using sleep as the subject of the verb deprive. Sleep-deprived is an adjective.
I never said it was the subject of a verb. I said it was a noun being used adverbially.
Quote:
I am always surprised when I see the lengths to which descriptivists will go to say that something that is so plainly wrong might possibly be correct.
TEd
Nobody ever said it was easy being a descriptivist. We have to look at actual usage and work out the rules our own se'ves. We don't get no book with no easily memorized rules that we proceed to apply willy-nilly to any usage that happens to set our poor teeth on edge. And we don't have to say that it is correct; the fact of its being used and understood is proof enough. What we go to great lengths to show is how it came to be.
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm thinking, and the thought is not a happy one, because it comes along just as I'm passing sheep number 522 as I try to get some shut eye last night, that this 'freedom was deprived' thing is along the lines of 'deprived children,' 'when children were deprived.' An out and out adjective. But, now, children are deprived of all sorts of things. Chiefly, food and well-fed parents, and this may lead them to be depraived in later life. But, then, if you came to me in the jury box and said it's because their freedom is deprived, I'd think they did the heinous deed in a movie theater, where, as everyone knows, no one knows what they're talking about. And everyone else could care less. Look, here's what the people I know who know Hollywood call that town. They don't call it Tinsel Town. They call it Stupid Town. "Freedom was deprived" has the sound of meaning something, but it's all smoke and hooha, signifiying nothing. Lord knows, But Stupid Town wasn't named for it's publicists, so let's assume they understand English well enough to get -- to even intend -- the idiocy. Then the meaning isn't what our resident descriptivist seems to suggest it is, but something else. Viz. "This movie is about something super important, in a superhero kind of way, but we can't tell you what it is. . . . And who cares, anyway?"
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