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Hi Guys~
I loved the cynical [read:tsuwmy] quote from today's WAD ("stet"):
"I realize that I have silted myself into the debate as a typographical
neoconservative and a novitiate Barzunite, having insulted both pop
culture and the West, and implied an allegiance to elegance and the
author. I don't really want to mean this. Nevertheless, pls stet."
Janet Burroway; Language, Culture, And the Cop (sic) Editor;
The Chronicle of Higher Education (Washington, DC); Nov 7, 1997.(E.A.)
i'm intrigued by the word 'Barzunite'...i immediately filed it in mind along the ranks of 'luddite' and 'sybarite' and [my personal favourite] 'troglodyte', but i'm wondering instead if this is simply a reference to the author (Barzun? Barzune?) of whom the editor is speaking.
anyone know where 'barzunite' comes from, and if it's indeed a broader reference to an historical group of people...or just some author's name?
while you're at it, is there a specific rhetorical term for the metaphorical borrowing of a noun referring to a group of people for use in describing a person who shares that group's salient qualities? and can anyone think of other examples of this phenomenon?
cheers ;-)
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Pooh-Bah
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Welcome Cara Is there a word for paragraphs that make you dizzy on first reading? 
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Carpal Tunnel
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His massive, sweeping, and critically acclaimed historical survey, From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life, 1500 to the Present (2000), was a surprise[!] bestseller. : )
tsuwmy?!.. hi cara!
oh yes, in the style of Jacques Barzun:
He is convinced that our age, despite its extraordinary technological capabilities, is an Alexandrian age: a time of cultural sunset, depleted energies and moral confusion. His summary of what he calls "our present decadence" shows that he does not regard decadence as a neutral historical fact but as a cultural, moral, and political disaster of the first order. (from a review of Dawn to Decadence.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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See also Oswald Spengler, Decline of the West, first published as Der Untergang des Abendlandes (1918/1923), but only if you are highly resistant to externally-induced depression.
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Carpal Tunnel
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hi cara - always a pleasure to welcome a new face to the board :)
Sorry I can't help with your rhetorical term of art - our specialist in these hasn't been around much recently or I would have known exactly who to ask. She even used to take lists of such things down to the beach to memorise - now *that's dedication!
ps: not sure I even unnerstood your daftynition but!
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can anyone think of other examples of this phenomenon?
How about "Marxist", after Karl Marx, or
Luddite "after Ned Ludd, an English laborer who was supposed to have destroyed weaving machinery around 1779."
[Dictionary.com]
re is there a specific rhetorical term for the metaphorical borrowing of a noun referring to a group of people for use in describing a person who shares that group's salient qualities?
How about ...
eponym
"A person whose name is or is thought to be the source of the name of something, such as a city, country, or era. For example, Romulus is the eponym of Rome."
[French éponyme, from Greek epnumos, named after : epi-, epi- + onoma, onuma, name; see n-men- in Indo-European Roots.]
Dictionary.com
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Cara: It might be interesting to consider how the various suffixes are chosen for these eponymous words. For instance: Why does a follower of Karl Marx become a "Marxist" ... while a follower of Christ becomes a "Christian" ... while something dating back to the presidency of Thomas Jefferson is "Jeffersonian" and to the era of Queen Victoria "Victorian" ... while someone from Windsor is a "Windsorite" while someone from Phildadelphia is a "Philadelphian"? In summ: Why couldn't a "Marxist" be a "Marxian"?A "Marxist" is certainly a "Marxian", but is a "Marxian" necessarily a "Marxist"? "Soon after the death of Karl Marx, a Marxian school of economics emerged under the leadership of Marx's inner circle of companions and co-writers, notably Friedrich Engels and Karl Kautsky, both of whom were German." http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/marxian.htmMarxian [Dictionary.com] "One who studies, advocates, or makes use of Karl Marx's philosophical or socioeconomic concepts as a method of analysis and interpretation, as in political economy or historical or literary criticism."From this definition, it would seem that one could be a Marxian studying Marx's socioeconomic concepts without actually being a "Marxist". Which brings us back to where we started: How is an "ist" suffix different than an "ian" suffix, assuming there is any difference at all? And, if there is no deliberate and systematic difference in meaning, on what basis is the "ist" ending chosen over the "ian" ending, and vice versa?
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on what basis is the "ist" ending chosen over the "ian" ending, and vice versa?
This Q&A comes close to shedding light on these endings:
Ernesto Rocchetti from Italy writes:
I've got a question for you. Is there any rule which tells us when to use ....er and when to use .....ist at the end of a job name? For example:
painter or nutritionist
Roger Woodham replies:
There are no rules, I'm afraid, although a number of patterns emerge. Unskilled or semi-skilled job-holders are often denoted with …er, whilst those in scientific or medical professions are often designated with …ist. But there are many exceptions.
The …er suffix is very common, but so is …or. The …ist ending is also quite common, but so is …an. We also have …ant (accountant, shop assistant, civil servant, flight attendant) …man (postman, fireman, dustman, barman, draughtsman, fisherman), …ess (waitress, hostess, Headmistress) …ee (trainee, employee) and …ive (representative, machine operative), etc.
It is really a matter of learning them and knowing them. Learn them in word families .... ."
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Carpal Tunnel
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who (what) are you quoting from?
who is Roger Woodham?
(is it a source you've quoted before--(and i just missed the clue?) or an other source?
(is it included in the links that can be referenced by Max's page of language links or is it one that should be added?)
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Sorry, Of Troy. I forgot to add the link. It's from a BBC World Service website "Learning English". http://snipurl.com/c30xRoger Woodham is described as follows: "Roger Woodham, an experienced teacher of English, answers questions about grammar, vocabulary and learning strategies. Part of the useful BBC World Service 'Learning English' site."
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Then there was the friend of mine who described himself as a Trotskyist. When asked what the difference was between a Trotskyist and a Trotskyite he said that it was the same as the difference between a socialist and a socialite.
Welcome back xoxo
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Carpal Tunnel
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As is my wont, I have nothing to add to the topc. I did want to say, cara, dear, that you don't seem like a stranger at all! Welcome.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Allo Cara ma choupette - nice to see you here.
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A Luddite is a person who is like Ned Ludd.
A Leninist is a person who follows the teaching of Lenin, which is different.
A Barzunite is a person who is like Jacques Barzun.
A Calvinist is a person who follows the teaching of John Calvin, which is different.
A Sadist is a person who is like the Marquis de Sade.
A Benedictine is a person who follows the teaching of St Benedict of Nursia, which is different.
These seem less than iron-clad distinctions, but I suspect that there truly is a worthwhile distinction lurking in here somewhere.
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maybe so; but not one that you could render in *Newtonian symbology.
to wit: Leninist :: Cavinist !: Sadist
(per your formulations)
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Pooh-Bah
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Hey, Cara, I pop in and see the tone of the neighbourhood just took a fatal plunge! How's sunny California?
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I suspect that there truly is a worthwhile distinction lurking in here somewhere.
Good analysis, Father Steve.
It could be that the language inclines to the "ist" ending when describing a follower of a historical figure like Marx or Lenin or Calvin who urged profound changes in the organization of society or religion, whilst inclining towards the "ian" ending to describe those who "accept" intellectually, but do not "follow" [implying commitment or devotion], the world-view or the hypothesis of a pioneering scientist, like Newton [Newtonian], or Freud [Freudian], or a pioneering thinker or philosopher, like Aristotle [Aristotelean].
Of course, this doesn't explain why a follower of Christ is a "Christian" rather than a "Christist".* [Please see "Footnote" - separate post.]
The awkwardness of the "Christist" alternative may be revealing. It may be that exceptions from the 'rule' occur only when needed to soften or facilitate pronunciation.
Further, it may be that the "ite" ending is preferred over "ian" for prominent creatives, like Barzune, whose literary or artistic insights do not shake the foundations of science or society, but merely lead the way in establishing new perspectives or styles or fashions or trends.
Interesting that Marx gives us both "Marxian" and "Markist" indicating that his world-view was sufficiently epochal to be studied or 'followed' or both.
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There is some obscure use of the word "Christist", as evidenced in this essay: Active Pythagorean schools were in existence until the sixth century. The last, in Alexandria, was suppressed by the Byzantine Emperor Justinian in the course of a Christist pogrom against philosophy and paganism. The refugees fled East to Persia, where Zoroastrianism continued to flourish until its suppression by Islam between the 8th and 10th centuries.
There is little doubt that from those times forward, science, mathematics and philosophy were dangerous fringe occupations throughout the Christist Empire. It can be argued that Christist intolerance was responsible for a hiatus of nearly 1000 years in the development of human knowledge, aided and abetted by Pythagorean secrecy. For example, it is now generally accepted that the earth is spherical, and that it orbits the sun along with the other planets. It seems certain that the Pythagoreans understood this, both Copernicus and Kepler acknowledge it in their writings, but the development of calculus, as a means of modelling the mechanics of the solar system, had to wait until the 17th century.
Christist intellectual fascism was the main reason for the delay, in my view. Copernicus strikes a distinctly paranoid tone in the introduction to his major work 'De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium' (1543), and there is an element of Russian Roulette in the careers of many serious philosophers of that period. Followers of Copernicus, like Galileo, were subjected to the inquisition, and Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in Rome by Papal order of Clement VIII in 1600, with his tongue in a gag. Newton was fortunate to be working in the more open minded climate of Cambridge.http://snipurl.com/g5j5Note: I take issue with the author's use of "followers" in this sentence: " Followers of Copernicus, like Galileo" Those who were persuaded by the scientific discoveries or hypotheses of Copernicus and Galileo were not "followers" of these scientists, any more than those who accepted the scientific authority of Newton were "followers" of Newton. My criticism of this use of the word "followers" is consistent, I suggest, with the fact that Copernicus gave us the word "Copernican", not "Copernicist". Galileo, who recanted the scientific implications of his astronomical observations, gave us neither "Galileoian" nor "Galileoist".
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"Sadist" was mentioned earlier. Why we have "sadist" rather than "sadean" is somewhat more difficult to explain than most other "ist" endings, perhaps.
A "sadist" is "a person who is like the Marquis de Sade", as Father Steve has said, but a "sadist" may not know anything about the Marquis de Sade and his infamous practices. In this, "sadist" seems to be an eponymic anomaly. What Marxist would not know about Marx? What Calvinist would be ignorant of Calvin?
But, having said that, a "sadist" is one whose defining characteristic is not an intellectual interest in, or passive acceptance of, human perversity, such as one might find in a psychoanalyst [befitting an "ian" or "an" ending], but the active expression of that interest in acts of cruelty.
On this basis, "sadist", not "sadean", is the proper word to describe someone who is "like the Marquis de Sade".
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Carpal Tunnel
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Sadean does exist for one who accepts the Marquis' philosophical and literary ideas rather than the sexual practices associated with his name.
Perhaps Christian is anomalous (if indeed it is) because we took it over ready-formed from the Greek Christianos rather than adding the suffix ourselves.
Bingley
Bingley
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Sadean does exist ... Christianos
Thanks for that valuable input, Bingley.
I confess I didn't know the Marquis de Sade had any "philosophical and literary ideas", at least, any worth reading. Oftimes we confuse character with erudition or creativity, but, of course, there is no necessary correspondence.
As a matter of fact, there is compelling evidence that a benign form of manic-depression [mania without the depression] may account for the entrepreneurial spirit and economic prowess of the United States, a country which was built by daring and adventurous immigrants from other countries. There is a newly published book on this subject. I will look for it and report back.
BTW your report on the origin of "Christian" does resolve what appears to me [at least] to be a conspicuous exception to the implicit, not explicit, general 'rule' guiding "ist" endings [that is, eponymic "ist" endings].
Thanks again.
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I've just found the book, Bingley, written by John D. Gartner who teaches psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins Medical School. Here is an extract from something he wrote which is "adapted from his new book The Hypomanic Edge". "Hypomania—often found in the relatives of manic depressives—is a mild form of the psychiatric disorder known as mania. Hypomanics are brimming with infectious energy, irrational confidence, and really big ideas. They think, talk, move, and make decisions quickly. Anyone who slows them down with questions “just doesn’t get it.” Hypomanics are not mental cases, but “normal” is not the first word that comes to mind when describing them. Hypomanics live on the edge, between normal and abnormal.
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"There will be gold rushes, booms, and manias aplenty in our future. America has been a ship riding the waves of irrational exuberance for hundreds of years, and she’s not likely to change course any time soon.
It’s in our blood."America’s Manic Entrepreneurs By John Gartner http://snipurl.com/g877
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I must admit I haven't read any of the Marquis de Sade's writings either, but one can see that it might be worth making a distinction between Sadean use of the French language and Sadist use of the French language.
I wonder if there exists a similar distinction between Masochan use of the German language and Masochist use of the German language?
Bingley
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a similar distinction between Masochan use --- and Masochist use ---?Didn't know that masochist was an eponym, Bingley. But I see that you're right. [ Pls see * and Note below] This psychoanalyst - see below - observes that "masochism" is a term of "little precision" -- which makes sense, I suppose. We all make mistakes and mistakes bring us pain. One could go around in circles endlessly wondering if those mistakes are 'wilful'. On the other hand, causing pain to another is something which can be studied with scientific precision. One merely needs to establish that a person is inflicting pain on another person and the oppressor is aware of it and persists for no valid reason [i.e. no reason apart from the pleasure the pain brings to the oppressor]. Notes on Masochism: A Discussion of the History and Development of a Psychoanalytic ConceptWilliam I. Grossman, M.D. The term masochism, however, never did have a precise meaning or one that was generally accepted. It was a controversial term except as a literary designation for any phenomenon in which sexual pleasure and physical or mental pain were associated. The writings of Sacher-Masoch, which have been examined in an excellent literary and psychoanalytic study by Lenzer (1975), provided a prototype for all masochistic perversions. As Freud's concept of masochism evolved, the relation of partners in the masochistic perversion became the model for the relation between intrapsychic agencies, and masochism became a fundamental theoretical concept of drives and structure.
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At present, it has become evident that masochism is a term of little precision and that its value is descriptive and evocative. ------------ Part II presents one of a number of ways in which Freud took Krafft-Ebing's ideas about masochism and gave them a psychoanalytic shape. --------- Reporting on the Kris Study Group's examination of the problems of definition and usage with respect to masochism, Nersessian (1983) noted the confusion that arises when a term is used to refer indiscriminately to perversion, behavior, character trait, and instinctual drive. He added an interesting observation: "Not only did we find that not everyone agreed that a particular behavior was masochistic, but also that … it was often very difficult to maintain that view once it was challenged" (p. 3). This observation suggests that multiple viewpoints are possible: from one perspective, behavior may be masochistic, and from another, not.http://snipurl.com/g96a* Leopold von Sacher-Masoch(born, Lemberg, January 27, 1836 - died, Lindheim, March 9, 1895) Sacher-Masoch is best known for the novel, “Venus in Furs,” about the masochistic relationship between Serverin von Kusiemski dreamer and dillatante, and Wanda von Dunajew, a beautiful, free-spirited widow, to whom he becomes a slave. The novel is based on real events from the author’s life. It is was also the novel that Dr. Richard von Krafft-Ebing singled out in the origin of the word “Masochism.”http://snipurl.com/g97wNote: If "masochism" is a condition lacking the indicia required to make it the subject of authoritative scientific investigation, then it follows that one cannot be a "masochan".
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